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Finances / Finanzen » uk.finance » Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............
Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #375704] Di, 28 März 2006 11:27
Crowley  
Through a period of cheap and easy credit Britons have spent around 5
years earnings in just 3 years leaving record debts of =A31.2 trillion.
Chancellor Brown has also borrowed long to spend short leaving the UK
to pay off his spending spree for years to come.

Now watch the chickens as they start coming home to roost
..=2E.......................

Households on 'money knife-edge'

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4850160.stm

Two million households are living on a financial knife-edge,
susceptible to an economic downturn, a Financial Services Authority
(FSA) survey has suggested.

A further half million households are already having difficulty paying
bills and meeting debts, the report found.

The FSA identified a lack of consumer knowledge, particularly amongst
the 18-40 age group, as key to low levels of saving in the
UK..................

Academics at Bristol University, on behalf of the FSA, quizzed more
than 5,000 consumers about their personal finance know-how, the largest
survey of its type ever conducted.

The survey results revealed an alarming lack of knowledge amongst
consumers.

Some of the key findings included:

Half a million households are in serious financial difficulty, even in
current benign economic conditions

Most Britons are good at making ends meet but not so good at saving for
the future

Seven out of 10 consumers have no savings in place to see them through
a sudden drop in income

42% of working age adults do not have a personal or workplace pension,
yet 81% recognise that the state pension will not be enough for them to
enjoy a comfortable retirement ....... cont

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?act=3DSF&am p;s=3D&f=3D22
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #375716 ] Di, 28 März 2006 13:53
Welsh Witch  
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 01:27:27 -0800, Crowley wrote:

> Through a period of cheap and easy credit Britons have spent around 5
> years earnings in just 3 years leaving record debts of £1.2 trillion.
> Chancellor Brown has also borrowed long to spend short leaving the UK
> to pay off his spending spree for years to come.
>
> Now watch the chickens as they start coming home to roost
> .........................
>
> Households on 'money knife-edge'
>
> http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4850160.stm
>
> Two million households are living on a financial knife-edge,
> susceptible to an economic downturn, a Financial Services Authority
> (FSA) survey has suggested.
>
> A further half million households are already having difficulty paying
> bills and meeting debts, the report found.
>
> The FSA identified a lack of consumer knowledge, particularly amongst
> the 18-40 age group, as key to low levels of saving in the
> UK..................
>
> Academics at Bristol University, on behalf of the FSA, quizzed more
> than 5,000 consumers about their personal finance know-how, the largest
> survey of its type ever conducted.
>
> The survey results revealed an alarming lack of knowledge amongst
> consumers.
>
> Some of the key findings included:
>
> Half a million households are in serious financial difficulty, even in
> current benign economic conditions
>
> Most Britons are good at making ends meet but not so good at saving for
> the future
>
> Seven out of 10 consumers have no savings in place to see them through
> a sudden drop in income
>
> 42% of working age adults do not have a personal or workplace pension,
> yet 81% recognise that the state pension will not be enough for them to
> enjoy a comfortable retirement ....... cont
>
> http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?act=SF& s=&f=22
*********************************
You know don;t you that that's when the cull starts...when the chickens
wont come off their roosts!!
************************
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #375741 ] Di, 28 März 2006 20:35
Tumbleweed  
>"Crowley" <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:1143538046.960862.33540 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...


>The survey results revealed an alarming lack of knowledge amongst
>consumers.

Then why do none of the "findings" below relate to lack of **knowledge**?

>Some of the key findings included:

>Half a million households are in serious financial difficulty, even in
>current benign economic conditions

>Most Britons are good at making ends meet but not so good at saving for
>the future

>Seven out of 10 consumers have no savings in place to see them through
>a sudden drop in income

>42% of working age adults do not have a personal or workplace pension,
>yet 81% recognise that the state pension will not be enough for them to
>enjoy a comfortable retirement ....... cont

When was it ever different?


--
Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #375742 ] Di, 28 März 2006 20:34
Mabon Dane  
I am very saddened to hear that so many of our young people are in
financial difficulty.
Mabon Dane
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #375749 ] Di, 28 März 2006 21:41
Crowley  
Tumbleweed wrote:
> >"Crowley" <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> > >news:1143538046.960862.33540 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> >The survey results revealed an alarming lack of knowledge amongst
> >consumers.
>
> Then why do none of the "findings" below relate to lack of **knowledge**?
>
> >Some of the key findings included:
>
> >Half a million households are in serious financial difficulty, even in
> >current benign economic conditions
>
> >Most Britons are good at making ends meet but not so good at saving for
> >the future
>
> >Seven out of 10 consumers have no savings in place to see them through
> >a sudden drop in income
>
> >42% of working age adults do not have a personal or workplace pension,
> >yet 81% recognise that the state pension will not be enough for them to
> >enjoy a comfortable retirement ....... cont
>
> When was it ever different?
About 8 years ago when personal debt stood at around *half* the record
=A31.2 trillion debt it stands at today.
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #375758 ] Di, 28 März 2006 22:20
Tumbleweed  
"Crowley" <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1143574919.019413.218600 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...

Tumbleweed wrote:
> >"Crowley" <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> > >news:1143538046.960862.33540 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> >The survey results revealed an alarming lack of knowledge amongst
> >consumers.
>
> Then why do none of the "findings" below relate to lack of **knowledge**?
>
> >Some of the key findings included:
>
> >Half a million households are in serious financial difficulty, even in
> >current benign economic conditions
>
> >Most Britons are good at making ends meet but not so good at saving for
> >the future
>
> >Seven out of 10 consumers have no savings in place to see them through
> >a sudden drop in income
>
> >42% of working age adults do not have a personal or workplace pension,
> >yet 81% recognise that the state pension will not be enough for them to
> >enjoy a comfortable retirement ....... cont
>
> When was it ever different?
About 8 years ago when personal debt stood at around *half* the record
£1.2 trillion debt it stands at today.

======

So your contention is that 8 years ago;
7 out of 10 cnsumers had savings in place to see them through a drop in
income,
much more than 42% had a pension that would be enough,
significantly less than 500k households were in personal financial
difficulty?
Most Britons had 'no difficulty' saving for the future.

Somehow, I dont believe all this.

But no doubt you would be able to tell us what the actual stats were?

--
Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #375767 ] Di, 28 März 2006 23:09
Crowley  
Tumbleweed wrote:
> "Crowley" <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> > When was it ever different?
> About 8 years ago when personal debt stood at around *half* the record
> =A31.2 trillion debt it stands at today.
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
> So your contention is that 8 years ago;
> 7 out of 10 cnsumers had savings in place to see them through a drop in
> income,
> much more than 42% had a pension that would be enough,
> significantly less than 500k households were in personal financial
> difficulty?
> Most Britons had 'no difficulty' saving for the future.

LOL. Whenever have I made that contention ? Perhaps you're mixing me up
with the authors of that FSA survey

> Somehow, I dont believe all this.
>
> But no doubt you would be able to tell us what the actual stats were?

I haven't a clue but I'll hazard a few guesses if you'd like me to.
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #375785 ] Mi, 29 März 2006 01:40
Richard Faulkner  
In message <1143538046.960862.33540 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
Crowley <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> writes
>The FSA identified a lack of consumer knowledge, particularly amongst
>the 18-40 age group, as key to low levels of saving in the
>UK..................


"A lack of consumer knowledge" !!!

How much do these people spend trying to convince us that they are
conduct investigations equivalent to rocket science

IT'S A LACK OF FU***NG MONEY YOU MORONS!!!

I didnt save a penny, and lived on credit cards, borrowings, and
overdrafts from almost the day I started work at 17, until I was about
42, I had a ton of consumer knowledge and no ******* money! (In reality,
I probably started to break even in terms of house equity v borrowings
at the age of 40 in 2000).


--
Richard Faulkner
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #375786 ] Mi, 29 März 2006 01:44
Richard Faulkner  
In message <1143580193.890449.19200 [at] v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>,
Crowley <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> writes
>
>Tumbleweed wrote:
>> "Crowley" <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>> > When was it ever different?
>> About 8 years ago when personal debt stood at around *half* the record
>> £1.2 trillion debt it stands at today.
>>
>> ======
>>
>> So your contention is that 8 years ago;
>> 7 out of 10 cnsumers had savings in place to see them through a drop in
>> income,
>> much more than 42% had a pension that would be enough,
>> significantly less than 500k households were in personal financial
>> difficulty?
>> Most Britons had 'no difficulty' saving for the future.
>
>LOL. Whenever have I made that contention ? Perhaps you're mixing me up
>with the authors of that FSA survey
>

But you are posting their comments in support of your previously stated
position, so it is a kind of contention which you purport to agree with.

>> Somehow, I dont believe all this.
>>
>> But no doubt you would be able to tell us what the actual stats were?
>
>I haven't a clue but I'll hazard a few guesses if you'd like me to.
>

Guesses wont be good enough - if you provide anything, the stats need to
be accurate from quoted sources.

As far as I can recall, Britons have not been a nation of savers for
over a decade or 2.

--
Richard Faulkner
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #375788 ] Mi, 29 März 2006 09:27
Tumbleweed  
"Crowley" <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1143580193.890449.19200 [at] v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...

Tumbleweed wrote:
> "Crowley" <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> > When was it ever different?
> About 8 years ago when personal debt stood at around *half* the record
> £1.2 trillion debt it stands at today.
>
> ======
>
> So your contention is that 8 years ago;
> 7 out of 10 cnsumers had savings in place to see them through a drop in
> income,
> much more than 42% had a pension that would be enough,
> significantly less than 500k households were in personal financial
> difficulty?
> Most Britons had 'no difficulty' saving for the future.

LOL. Whenever have I made that contention ? Perhaps you're mixing me up
with the authors of that FSA survey
===========================================
Sorry, I was under the misapprehension that you posted something you agreed
with.


--
Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #375792 ] Mi, 29 März 2006 10:38
Crowley  
Tumbleweed wrote:

..
> "Crowley" <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1143580193.890449.19200 [at] v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>
> Tumbleweed wrote:
> > "Crowley" <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > When was it ever different?
> > About 8 years ago when personal debt stood at around *half* the record
> > =A31.2 trillion debt it stands at today.
> >
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> >
> > So your contention is that 8 years ago;
> > 7 out of 10 cnsumers had savings in place to see them through a drop in
> > income,
> > much more than 42% had a pension that would be enough,
> > significantly less than 500k households were in personal financial
> > difficulty?
> > Most Britons had 'no difficulty' saving for the future.
>
> LOL. Whenever have I made that contention ? Perhaps you're mixing me up
> with the authors of that FSA survey
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Sorry, I was under the misapprehension that you posted something you agre=
ed
> with.
>
>
> --
> Tumbleweed
>
> email replies not necessary but to contact use;
> tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

I posted it for discussion and I think I've made clear that I agree
with parts of it. I'm not sure about some of it though I have no
particular reason to doubt the veracity or otherwise of a survey by the
FSA. Do you ?
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #375793 ] Mi, 29 März 2006 10:45
Crowley  
Richard Faulkner wrote:
..

> In message <1143538046.960862.33540 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
> Crowley <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> writes
> >The FSA identified a lack of consumer knowledge, particularly amongst
> >the 18-40 age group, as key to low levels of saving in the
> >UK..................
>
>
> "A lack of consumer knowledge" !!!
>
> How much do these people spend trying to convince us that they are
> conduct investigations equivalent to rocket science
>
> IT'S A LACK OF FU***NG MONEY YOU MORONS!!!
>
> I didnt save a penny, and lived on credit cards, borrowings, and
> overdrafts from almost the day I started work at 17, until I was about
> 42, I had a ton of consumer knowledge and no ******* money! (In reality,
> I probably started to break even in terms of house equity v borrowings
> at the age of 40 in 2000).
>
>
> --
> Richard Faulkner

I think the point here though Richard is that the level of indebtedness
is much worse than in your day. It's not simply the 'lack of money'.
it's the fact that over the past few years Britons have borrowed and
spent like never before leaving them in record debt.

Or perhaps you think it's all hunky dory and record debt levels,
negative savings ratio, and the pensions crisis is just a load of fuss
about nothing being whipped up by doommongers ? Though why the FSA
should join in the chorus is beyond me.
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #375794 ] Mi, 29 März 2006 11:00
David George  
Richard Faulkner wrote:
> Guesses wont be good enough - if you provide anything, the stats need to
> be accurate from quoted sources.
>
> As far as I can recall, Britons have not been a nation of savers for
> over a decade or 2.

LOL, have you any stats to back up that claim?
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #375795 ] Mi, 29 März 2006 11:04
David George  
Crowley wrote:
> I have no
> particular reason to doubt the veracity or otherwise of a survey by the
> FSA. Do you ?

You always need to ask what their agenda is. Personally I don't
understand why a Ltd Co. such as the FSA is flying under a .gov.uk
domain name when they claim themselves to be:

an independent non-governmental body

all seems a bit fishy to me.
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #375822 ] Mi, 29 März 2006 13:45
Richard Faulkner  
In message <442a4cba$0$1145$7a628cd7 [at] news.club-internet.fr>, davidof
<david.george [at] g-dumpthisbit-mail.com> writes
>Richard Faulkner wrote:
>> Guesses wont be good enough - if you provide anything, the stats need
>>to be accurate from quoted sources.
>> As far as I can recall, Britons have not been a nation of savers for
>>over a decade or 2.
>
>LOL, have you any stats to back up that claim?


No - this was an AFAIR statement.....

--
Richard Faulkner
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #375823 ] Mi, 29 März 2006 13:56
Richard Faulkner  
In message <1143621945.882977.78680 [at] j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Crowley <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> writes
>
>Richard Faulkner wrote:
>.
>
>> In message <1143538046.960862.33540 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
>> Crowley <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> writes
>> >The FSA identified a lack of consumer knowledge, particularly amongst
>> >the 18-40 age group, as key to low levels of saving in the
>> >UK..................
>>
>>
>> "A lack of consumer knowledge" !!!
>>
>> How much do these people spend trying to convince us that they are
>> conduct investigations equivalent to rocket science
>>
>> IT'S A LACK OF FU***NG MONEY YOU MORONS!!!
>>
>> I didnt save a penny, and lived on credit cards, borrowings, and
>> overdrafts from almost the day I started work at 17, until I was about
>> 42, I had a ton of consumer knowledge and no ******* money! (In reality,
>> I probably started to break even in terms of house equity v borrowings
>> at the age of 40 in 2000).
>>
>>
>> --
>> Richard Faulkner
>
>I think the point here though Richard is that the level of indebtedness
>is much worse than in your day. It's not simply the 'lack of money'.
>it's the fact that over the past few years Britons have borrowed and
>spent like never before leaving them in record debt.
>

Just like I did, along with many of my peers.

>Or perhaps you think it's all hunky dory and record debt levels,
>negative savings ratio, and the pensions crisis is just a load of fuss
>about nothing being whipped up by doommongers ?

I suspect that debt levels are almost always at record levels, due to
the fact that our economy tends to grow.

Negative savings have been an issue for longer than the past few years.

The pensions crisis is a new thing,

> Though why the FSA
>should join in the chorus is beyond me.
>

Justify their existence??

The thing is, people are always looking for excuses for their problems.
When I was in debt, it was MY problem... not the fault of the people who
lent me the money. If they offered me too much, and I took it, it was MY
problem. Anybody who says anything different is involved in creating a
society where it is OK to pass the buck rather than take responsibility.
It happens with crime, where do gooders are always looking for a reason
to blame society rather that the T**T who broke my car window, or mugged
the old lady down the street........ The FSA seem to be on the same
bandwagon.

Nothing has really changed.... we are at a point in the cycle, and we
will be at another point in a few years.

--
Richard Faulkner
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #375826 ] Mi, 29 März 2006 15:32
Crowley  
Richard Faulkner wrote:
> In message <1143621945.882977.78680 [at] j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> Crowley <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> writes
> >
> >Richard Faulkner wrote:
> >.
> >
> >> In message <1143538046.960862.33540 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
> >> Crowley <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> writes
> >> >The FSA identified a lack of consumer knowledge, particularly amongst
> >> >the 18-40 age group, as key to low levels of saving in the
> >> >UK..................
> >>
> >>
> >> "A lack of consumer knowledge" !!!
> >>
> >> How much do these people spend trying to convince us that they are
> >> conduct investigations equivalent to rocket science
> >>
> >> IT'S A LACK OF FU***NG MONEY YOU MORONS!!!
> >>
> >> I didnt save a penny, and lived on credit cards, borrowings, and
> >> overdrafts from almost the day I started work at 17, until I was about
> >> 42, I had a ton of consumer knowledge and no ******* money! (In reality,
> >> I probably started to break even in terms of house equity v borrowings
> >> at the age of 40 in 2000).
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Richard Faulkner
> >
> >I think the point here though Richard is that the level of indebtedness
> >is much worse than in your day. It's not simply the 'lack of money'.
> >it's the fact that over the past few years Britons have borrowed and
> >spent like never before leaving them in record debt.
> >
>
> Just like I did, along with many of my peers.
>
> >Or perhaps you think it's all hunky dory and record debt levels,
> >negative savings ratio, and the pensions crisis is just a load of fuss
> >about nothing being whipped up by doommongers ?
>
> I suspect that debt levels are almost always at record levels, due to
> the fact that our economy tends to grow.
>
> Negative savings have been an issue for longer than the past few years.
>
> The pensions crisis is a new thing,
>
> > Though why the FSA
> >should join in the chorus is beyond me.
> >
>
> Justify their existence??
>
> The thing is, people are always looking for excuses for their problems.
> When I was in debt, it was MY problem... not the fault of the people who
> lent me the money. If they offered me too much, and I took it, it was MY
> problem. Anybody who says anything different is involved in creating a
> society where it is OK to pass the buck rather than take responsibility.
> It happens with crime, where do gooders are always looking for a reason
> to blame society rather that the T**T who broke my car window, or mugged
> the old lady down the street........ The FSA seem to be on the same
> bandwagon.

We agree on that. People should have to take responsibility for their
own behavious rather than blame others and that includes debt. I don't
want to see them bailed out with taxpayers money.

> Nothing has really changed.... we are at a point in the cycle, and we
> will be at another point in a few years.

Very true. Though it may be worse this time ;-)
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #375828 ] Mi, 29 März 2006 15:50
Tumbleweed  
"Crowley" <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1143621510.861888.137460 [at] v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...

Tumbleweed wrote:

..
> "Crowley" <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1143580193.890449.19200 [at] v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>
> Tumbleweed wrote:
> > "Crowley" <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > When was it ever different?
> > About 8 years ago when personal debt stood at around *half* the record
> > £1.2 trillion debt it stands at today.
> >
> > ======
> >
> > So your contention is that 8 years ago;
> > 7 out of 10 cnsumers had savings in place to see them through a drop in
> > income,
> > much more than 42% had a pension that would be enough,
> > significantly less than 500k households were in personal financial
> > difficulty?
> > Most Britons had 'no difficulty' saving for the future.
>
> LOL. Whenever have I made that contention ? Perhaps you're mixing me up
> with the authors of that FSA survey
> ===========================================
> Sorry, I was under the misapprehension that you posted something you
> agreed
> with.
>
>
> --
> Tumbleweed
>
> email replies not necessary but to contact use;
> tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

I posted it for discussion and I think I've made clear that I agree
with parts of it. I'm not sure about some of it though I have no
particular reason to doubt the veracity or otherwise of a survey by the
FSA. Do you ?

=================

SInce they only post bare facts, and dont show how they have changed over
the years, or compare us to other similar countries then I fail to see the
point of it. So, what does it all mean? Nothing is the answer.

Its like me posting that I have done a survey and 85% of all people called
Crowley are pessimistic about the economy. So what? Only useful if I point
out, for example, that everyone else is 50% pessimistic, that 10 years ago
Crowleys' were 99% pessimistic, and Crowleys in mainland Europe are 20%. Now
we get to draw some conclusions.

--
Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #375829 ] Mi, 29 März 2006 15:51
Tumbleweed  
"Crowley" <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1143621945.882977.78680 [at] j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Richard Faulkner wrote:
> .
>
>> In message <1143538046.960862.33540 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
>> Crowley <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> writes
>> >The FSA identified a lack of consumer knowledge, particularly amongst
>> >the 18-40 age group, as key to low levels of saving in the
>> >UK..................
>>
>>
>> "A lack of consumer knowledge" !!!
>>
>> How much do these people spend trying to convince us that they are
>> conduct investigations equivalent to rocket science
>>
>> IT'S A LACK OF FU***NG MONEY YOU MORONS!!!
>>
>> I didnt save a penny, and lived on credit cards, borrowings, and
>> overdrafts from almost the day I started work at 17, until I was about
>> 42, I had a ton of consumer knowledge and no ******* money! (In reality,
>> I probably started to break even in terms of house equity v borrowings
>> at the age of 40 in 2000).
>>
>>
>> --
>> Richard Faulkner
>
> I think the point here though Richard is that the level of indebtedness
> is much worse than in your day.

Well we certainly dont know that from the report extract you posted.

--
Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #375834 ] Mi, 29 März 2006 16:08
Crowley  
Tumbleweed wrote:
> "Crowley" <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1143621510.861888.137460 [at] v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>
> Tumbleweed wrote:
>
> .
> > "Crowley" <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:1143580193.890449.19200 [at] v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Tumbleweed wrote:
> > > "Crowley" <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > > When was it ever different?
> > > About 8 years ago when personal debt stood at around *half* the record
> > > =A31.2 trillion debt it stands at today.
> > >
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > >
> > > So your contention is that 8 years ago;
> > > 7 out of 10 cnsumers had savings in place to see them through a drop =
in
> > > income,
> > > much more than 42% had a pension that would be enough,
> > > significantly less than 500k households were in personal financial
> > > difficulty?
> > > Most Britons had 'no difficulty' saving for the future.
> >
> > LOL. Whenever have I made that contention ? Perhaps you're mixing me up
> > with the authors of that FSA survey
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > Sorry, I was under the misapprehension that you posted something you
> > agreed
> > with.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Tumbleweed
> >
> > email replies not necessary but to contact use;
> > tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com
>
> I posted it for discussion and I think I've made clear that I agree
> with parts of it. I'm not sure about some of it though I have no
> particular reason to doubt the veracity or otherwise of a survey by the
> FSA. Do you ?
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
> SInce they only post bare facts, and dont show how they have changed over
> the years, or compare us to other similar countries then I fail to see t=
he
> point of it. So, what does it all mean? Nothing is the answer.
>
> Its like me posting that I have done a survey and 85% of all people called
> Crowley are pessimistic about the economy. So what? Only useful if I poi=
nt
> out, for example, that everyone else is 50% pessimistic, that 10 years ago
> Crowleys' were 99% pessimistic, and Crowleys in mainland Europe are 20%. =
Now
> we get to draw some conclusions.
>
> --
> Tumbleweed
>
> email replies not necessary but to contact use;
> tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

It's limited by failing to draw past comparisons that's true but it's
generally a very gloomy report. The FSA aren't trying to flog us
anything are they so can we assume they are reasonably neutral and
objective in their expressions of concern ?
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #375837 ] Mi, 29 März 2006 16:12
Crowley  
Tumbleweed wrote:
> "Crowley" <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1143621945.882977.78680 [at] j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Richard Faulkner wrote:
> > .
> >
> >> In message <1143538046.960862.33540 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
> >> Crowley <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> writes
> >> >The FSA identified a lack of consumer knowledge, particularly amongst
> >> >the 18-40 age group, as key to low levels of saving in the
> >> >UK..................
> >>
> >>
> >> "A lack of consumer knowledge" !!!
> >>
> >> How much do these people spend trying to convince us that they are
> >> conduct investigations equivalent to rocket science
> >>
> >> IT'S A LACK OF FU***NG MONEY YOU MORONS!!!
> >>
> >> I didnt save a penny, and lived on credit cards, borrowings, and
> >> overdrafts from almost the day I started work at 17, until I was about
> >> 42, I had a ton of consumer knowledge and no ******* money! (In reality,
> >> I probably started to break even in terms of house equity v borrowings
> >> at the age of 40 in 2000).
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Richard Faulkner
> >
> > I think the point here though Richard is that the level of indebtedness
> > is much worse than in your day.
>
> Well we certainly dont know that from the report extract you posted.
>
> --
> Tumbleweed
>
> email replies not necessary but to contact use;
> tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

I know from reading and hearing about it from several reputable sources
that the level of consumer debt has almost doubled from 1997 to 2006
and now stands close to $1.2 trillion.

I'm sure it's nothing to worry about though as they said on the bridge
of the Titanic upon first spying the iceberg ;-)
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #375855 ] Mi, 29 März 2006 18:15
Tumbleweed  
"Crowley" <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1143641283.859468.79980 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...

It's limited by failing to draw past comparisons that's true but it's
generally a very gloomy report. The FSA aren't trying to flog us
anything are they so can we assume they are reasonably neutral and
objective in their expressions of concern ?

==========
Thats my point, how do you know its gloomy? maybe all the figures they
mention were 10% worse 5 years ago so there has been an improvement?

--
Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #375861 ] Mi, 29 März 2006 18:28
Crowley  
Tumbleweed wrote:
> "Crowley" <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1143641283.859468.79980 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
>
> It's limited by failing to draw past comparisons that's true but it's
> generally a very gloomy report. The FSA aren't trying to flog us
> anything are they so can we assume they are reasonably neutral and
> objective in their expressions of concern ?
>
> ==========
> Thats my point, how do you know its gloomy? maybe all the figures they
> mention were 10% worse 5 years ago so there has been an improvement?

Is this a wind-up ? The whole tone of the survey was gloomy wasn't it
or am I living in a parallel universe where gloom = joy ? I know you're
a "glass-half-full" type TW while for me it's often "half-empty" but
surely our perceptions can't differ that much ?

Even the title hints strongly at the contents ............. 'Households
on 'money knife-edge', though I agree the provision of past figures
would have been useful as a comparison tool.
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #375866 ] Mi, 29 März 2006 18:45
Tumbleweed  
"Crowley" <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1143649706.894082.312260 [at] g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Tumbleweed wrote:
>> "Crowley" <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:1143641283.859468.79980 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> It's limited by failing to draw past comparisons that's true but it's
>> generally a very gloomy report. The FSA aren't trying to flog us
>> anything are they so can we assume they are reasonably neutral and
>> objective in their expressions of concern ?
>>
>> ==========
>> Thats my point, how do you know its gloomy? maybe all the figures they
>> mention were 10% worse 5 years ago so there has been an improvement?
>
> Is this a wind-up ? The whole tone of the survey was gloomy wasn't it
> or am I living in a parallel universe where gloom = joy ?

No wind up, serious point, unless you have comparative figures, how do you
know it is gloomy?

Take their figures on pensions,and think about the past. Was it 42% didnt
have pensions they thought would be sufficient? Put it another way, 58%
do,and whats more, do you think that 100 years ago, 58% had sufficient
pension provision? Probably not. What about 50 years ago? Probably not. What
about 10 or 20 years ago. Dunno. Thats the point, without comparisons, how
can you say its gloomy?

Suppose that only 10% in Holland or France have sufficient provision? Then
we are looking good. But if its 85% we are looking bad. Again, without the
comparative info, those figures mean nothing.

Here's another comparison. I live in a house, and owe, on a mortgage,
probably several times more than my grandfathers total lifetimes earnings.
Is that gloomy (I owe so much?) or good (I live in a much better house, most
of which I own, than he did or ever had prospects of so doing,and I can pay
the mortgage off eventually so I'll one day own the house)
That mortgage is part of the 1.2 trillion UK personal debt you mentioned*
So, now is it a bad thing?

Tw

*I think it was you but if it wasnt, you would have posted it if you'd seen
it :-).
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #375870 ] Mi, 29 März 2006 18:56
Crowley  
Tumbleweed wrote:
> "Crowley" <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1143649706.894082.312260 [at] g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Tumbleweed wrote:
> >> "Crowley" <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> news:1143641283.859468.79980 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> >>
> >> It's limited by failing to draw past comparisons that's true but it's
> >> generally a very gloomy report. The FSA aren't trying to flog us
> >> anything are they so can we assume they are reasonably neutral and
> >> objective in their expressions of concern ?
> >>
> >> ==========
> >> Thats my point, how do you know its gloomy? maybe all the figures they
> >> mention were 10% worse 5 years ago so there has been an improvement?
> >
> > Is this a wind-up ? The whole tone of the survey was gloomy wasn't it
> > or am I living in a parallel universe where gloom = joy ?
>
> No wind up, serious point, unless you have comparative figures, how do you
> know it is gloomy?
>
> Take their figures on pensions,and think about the past. Was it 42% didnt
> have pensions they thought would be sufficient? Put it another way, 58%
> do,and whats more, do you think that 100 years ago, 58% had sufficient
> pension provision? Probably not. What about 50 years ago? Probably not. What
> about 10 or 20 years ago. Dunno. Thats the point, without comparisons, how
> can you say its gloomy?
>
> Suppose that only 10% in Holland or France have sufficient provision? Then
> we are looking good. But if its 85% we are looking bad. Again, without the
> comparative info, those figures mean nothing.
>
> Here's another comparison. I live in a house, and owe, on a mortgage,
> probably several times more than my grandfathers total lifetimes earnings.
> Is that gloomy (I owe so much?) or good (I live in a much better house, most
> of which I own, than he did or ever had prospects of so doing,and I can pay
> the mortgage off eventually so I'll one day own the house)
> That mortgage is part of the 1.2 trillion UK personal debt you mentioned*
> So, now is it a bad thing?
>
> Tw
>
> *I think it was you but if it wasnt, you would have posted it if you'd seen
> it :-).

The majority of us will survive a financial downturn relatively
unscathed because (if we don't lose our jobs) we can meet our financial
commitments without risk of repossession, bankruptcy etc. It seems from
the FSA survey however that a sizeable minority are now in a different
boat entirely, not that I have much sympathy for those irresponsible
enough to take on debts they cannot meet.....................

"Two million households are living on a financial knife-edge,
susceptible to an economic downturn, a Financial Services Authority
(FSA) survey has suggested.

A further half million households are already having difficulty paying
bills and meeting debts, the report found............."

2.5 million households, that's a sizeable minority. Aren't there about
12 million households in total ?
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #375874 ] Mi, 29 März 2006 19:23
Tumbleweed  
"Crowley" <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1143651385.276696.188200 [at] e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...

> "Two million households are living on a financial knife-edge,
> susceptible to an economic downturn, a Financial Services Authority
> (FSA) survey has suggested.
>

I suspect through most of modern times its always been similar, eg a large
percentage of the pop 'on a financial knife edge', susceptible to losing a
job and being evicted from their (mostly rented) properties. Remember 'cathy
come home' from the 1960's, a period of supposed properity? Amd wasnt
Shelter founded in the 1960's? is there much difference between someone in
say the 1960's losing their rented house, and someone now losing their
mortgaged house?

--
Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #375947 ] Do, 30 März 2006 15:18
Thom  
Richard Faulkner wrote:
> The thing is, people are always looking for excuses for their problems.
> When I was in debt, it was MY problem... not the fault of the people who
> lent me the money. If they offered me too much, and I took it, it was MY
> problem. Anybody who says anything different is involved in creating a
> society where it is OK to pass the buck rather than take responsibility.
> It happens with crime, where do gooders are always looking for a reason
> to blame society rather that the T**T who broke my car window, or mugged
> the old lady down the street........ The FSA seem to be on the same
> bandwagon.
>
> Nothing has really changed.... we are at a point in the cycle, and we
> will be at another point in a few years.

Isn't your position just as simplistic? Are there no irresponsible
lenders? Does society never have any impact on crime?

There are some examples of irresponsible lending that are beyond the
pale IMO - though I'd focus more on the lenders who charge people below
the poverty line 173% APR interest rather than the mainstream credit
card lenders.

Thom
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #377744 ] Di, 04 April 2006 20:14
M Holmes  
In uk.finance Crowley <crowleyalastair [at] yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> Or perhaps you think it's all hunky dory and record debt levels,
> negative savings ratio, and the pensions crisis is just a load of fuss
> about nothing being whipped up by doommongers ? Though why the FSA
> should join in the chorus is beyond me.

Behind the scenes there have been growing misgivings amongst financial
movers and shakers for the past couple of years concerning levels of
debt amongst the western and anglo-saxon conomies. However nobody wants
to get the blame for precipitating a crisis by calling one. Thus we have
Greenspan and Bernanke precipitating emergency interest levels (one
percent) to prevent a US deflation (and incidentally producing another
US asset bubble, which was what got them there in the first place). We
have behind the scenes bankers and leaders meetings discussing how to
repair the US trade and budgetary deficits. We have the European Bank
taking the kinds of action the US Federal reserve has been too
frightened to take. We have bond yield curves inverted. We have gold
rising in price at rates unprecedented for decades.

Few of the most famous have been willing to call a spade a shovel.
Amongst those who have are Warren Buffet, the world's most successful
investor. He warns that a crisis and Dollar collapse (followed by a
massive interest rate hike and land/property/bonds/shares collapse) will
be precipitated in the derivatives markets. The world's largest fund
manager, Bill Gross predicts somewhat similar harbingers of doom.
Finally Professor Kindleberger, arguably the world's greatest expert on
bubbles, argued that we'd entered the largest bubble the world has ever
seen and that large bubbles always end badly.

Something bad is coming and it will see some currencies washed from
existence. <Many companies will close their doors forever. Many many
families will find themselves unable to pay their debts and effectively
in hock for the rest of their lives. Some creditors will similarly never
be able to recover their loans, though they'll undoubtedly clog up the
Courts for years or decades trying. Governments who've unwisely borrowed
too much in the years of fat credit will find themselves unable to
honour all their commitments in the thin years of a debt crunch. Those
who took no action and figured the government would save them will find
the government saving itself and a few priority victims and telling most
others that they're on their own. Governments will fall. Parties will be
destroyed or will split and realign with others. Religions will
undoubtedly hit boom times again as people find little else they can
rely on except family and piety.

It will be bad for most people and downright awful for those who've
gotten in too deep or made no preparation to see themselves through
years of bad times.

In the end though, things will be better. People won't again take on
debts lasting a lifetime just to get the basics. People will again save
to buy things rather than live for the monent, and that will produce a
safer economy and a more grounded society. people will again discover
what is truly valuable in life: having the kind of people around you who
will help you through bad times.

In short, sooner rather than later I suspect, this long great madness
will have passed. Later rather than sooner we'll almost all be glad of
it and will find ourselves unable to believe that it happened at all.

Make no bones about it: credit is one of the most destructive forces
known to society and when it runs rampant, nemesis stalks us.

FoFP
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #377745 ] Di, 04 April 2006 20:33
M Holmes  
In uk.finance Richard Faulkner <richard [at] estate.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> I suspect that debt levels are almost always at record levels, due to
> the fact that our economy tends to grow.

Nope. Only towards the ends of credit cycles does the debt to GDP ratio
grow monotonically.

> Negative savings have been an issue for longer than the past few years.

Indeed, but you're not thinking in long enough terms. A credit cycle
lasts around 70 years. For how much of that has negative savings
existed, and how are those years placed in the cycle?

> The pensions crisis is a new thing,

Not really. We've known for two or three decades that the pensions
crisis was inevitable in a system that spends the contributions of today
instead of holding investments against liabilities. It was called a
Ponzi scheme in the 1960's. It's just due to demographics that we've
finally found that the pot is empty.

> The thing is, people are always looking for excuses for their problems.
> When I was in debt, it was MY problem... not the fault of the people who
> lent me the money. If they offered me too much, and I took it, it was MY
> problem. Anybody who says anything different is involved in creating a
> society where it is OK to pass the buck rather than take responsibility.
> It happens with crime, where do gooders are always looking for a reason
> to blame society rather that the T**T who broke my car window, or mugged
> the old lady down the street........ The FSA seem to be on the same
> bandwagon.

Yup. In fact I note that the scapegoats for the coming crisis are already
being lined up:

Banks who lend too much.
Unscrupulous estate agents.
Reckless hedge find managers.
Unfathomable derivatives traders.

We'll probably see speculators added to that, and anyone who makes a
profit out of what's coming better be able to hide it well or they'll
find themselves in jail with the government seizing their assets (in my
view a very likely fate of the hundreds or thousands who are later
discovered to have lied about income on mortgage forms). What is
constant in every other cycle is that people will not blame themselves
for their predicament and governments certainly won't accept blame.
Thus those who made money in the bubbles will be held responsible and
their faults and weaknesses will be sought out and exposed while their
assets are seized to fill abyssymal cracks in the financial system. It
happened to stockjobbers in the 1720's. It happened to canal stock
traders and later railway barons. It happened to the shakers of Wall
Street in 1929 and it happened to the junk bond traders in the 1990's.
It's happening to the folks at Enron now, and in a few years, it'll be
happening to the estate agents and BTL landlords who made too much
obvious money and who can be proven to have cut corners.

My suspicion is that the smart money already realises this and is
getting out, hiding the stash, and living the quiet life. Not all those
closed estate agencies went bankrupt.

> Nothing has really changed.... we are at a point in the cycle, and we
> will be at another point in a few years.

Indeed. The trouble is that that point is what used to be called
"K-Winter".

I've been on holiday, but I've been waiting for some time for ructions
in bond markets as inverted yield curves whip out again. It looks
suspiciously as if that's now happening and it's a much commented-upon
marker that the party is over and the piper is bringing us his bill.

What happened in Iceland (interest rates hiked to 11.5% to cover a
currency crisis and as a result the killing of a housing bubble) and
Arab stockmarkets (crashes) are almost certainly the first evidence of
the collateral damage that's to come.

The bears are probably about to be proven right, though I'm certain that
there'll be interesting new wrinkles that none of us will have spotted.

FoFP
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #377746 ] Di, 04 April 2006 20:35
M Holmes  
In uk.finance Thom <t.s.baguley [at] lboro.ac.uk> wrote:

> There are some examples of irresponsible lending that are beyond the
> pale IMO - though I'd focus more on the lenders who charge people below
> the poverty line 173% APR interest rather than the mainstream credit
> card lenders.

Why? Those guys are capitalist heroes. They're risking their capital by
being the only people who will lend those people money at a
market-clearing rate.

It's the folks lending make-believe money to the mass-markets who are
landing us all in the shit. Though admittedly they too are victims of
the bubble.

FoFP
Re: Households on 'money knife-edge'. Much worse to come ............ [message #377752 ] Di, 04 April 2006 22:33
sigvald  
M Holmes wrote:

> What happened in Iceland (interest rates hiked to 11.5% to cover a
> currency crisis and as a result the killing of a housing bubble)

There has not been any currency crisis (the kr=F3na is coming back down
to it=B4s normal level after having been unusually high for a time) and
neither has there been a housing bubble, the housing prices have been
rising but that is not unusual in an expanding economy.
The Icelandic economy just got the highest marks possible from the
Moody=B4s just to show how far from the truth the reports of impending
crisis are.
Vorheriges Thema:Re: Gordon is a liar. More job losses .........
Nächstes Thema:The disaster to come. It may be bad in France but it's going to be worse in Britain.
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