| Credit card without chip and pin [message #377932] |
Sa, 08 April 2006 11:05 |
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Last night in a restaurant my friend's Visa card was not accepted
as a means of payment because it was a foreign issued card with
'chip & pin'. By 'refused' I do not mean by any electronic system,
just that the resataurant refused to consider it on the grounds
that the bank had told them not to accept any cards not fitted
with a 'chip & pin' facility.
Fortunately we had other means of payment.
No other place where the same card had been used in the last week
in the UK had had any problems with accepting it.
I find the reason given as spurious - I cannot image that the banks
providing merchant card facilities intend that visitors to the UK
should not be able to use credit cards - and I suspect that the
staff at the restaurant have misinterpreted the regulations by
applying what perhaps should only apply to UK issued cards to all
cards. Would this be correct?
Had we had no other means of payment (or just decided to be bolshy),
I cannot see that the restaurant could have done much except either
accept the card or an IOU considering that the Visa sign was clearly
displayed on the door and neither there nor on the menu was there
any indication that only 'chip & pin' cards would be accepted.
Thoughts?
Axel
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377933 ] |
Sa, 08 April 2006 11:14 |
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axel [at] white-eagle.invalid.uk wrote:
> Last night in a restaurant my friend's Visa card was not accepted
> as a means of payment because it was a foreign issued card with
> 'chip & pin'. By 'refused' I do not mean by any electronic system,
> just that the resataurant refused to consider it on the grounds
> that the bank had told them not to accept any cards not fitted
> with a 'chip & pin' facility.
>
> Fortunately we had other means of payment.
>
> No other place where the same card had been used in the last week
> in the UK had had any problems with accepting it.
Good - the system is working.
> I find the reason given as spurious - I cannot image that the banks
> providing merchant card facilities intend that visitors to the UK
> should not be able to use credit cards - and I suspect that the
> staff at the restaurant have misinterpreted the regulations by
> applying what perhaps should only apply to UK issued cards to all
> cards. Would this be correct?
Restaurant owner an idiot. I think you are correct. Even shops locally
to me who insisted they would not accept cards without a PIN now accept
that one of my overseas cards is valid for use, without a PIN.
> Thoughts?
Name the establishment here so we can avoid it. Future searches linked
to that restaurant may show up their ignorance.
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377934 ] |
Sa, 08 April 2006 11:15 |
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axel [at] white-eagle.invalid.uk wrote:
> Last night in a restaurant my friend's Visa card was not accepted
> as a means of payment because it was a foreign issued card with
> 'chip & pin'. By 'refused' I do not mean by any electronic system,
> just that the resataurant refused to consider it on the grounds
> that the bank had told them not to accept any cards not fitted
> with a 'chip & pin' facility.
>
So where does that leave 'chip and signature'? Since many disabled people
cannot use chip & pin I trust disability discrimination law would stamp out
any unreasonable insistance on requiring chip and pin.
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377935 ] |
Sa, 08 April 2006 11:21 |
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You may like to report your experience to the Chip & PIN people via the
following link:
http://www.cardwatch.org.uk/default.asp?sectionid=5&page id=91
Good luck
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377936 ] |
Sa, 08 April 2006 11:28 |
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So where does that leave 'chip and signature'?
My debit and all my credit cards are Chip & Signature. (The cards that
card issuers don't want you to know about and mislead you into thinking
you have to be disabled to acquire them).
Experience so far, is that one or two retailers had to be convinced to
put the chipped card into the chip reader. Only when the transaction
slip popped out for me to sign as norm were they convinced.
Card issuers when issuing Chip & Signature cards send these cards with
letters telling you that the card is Chip and PIN, thus misleading the
cardholder. (I've lodged a complaint with Trading Standards).
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377937 ] |
Sa, 08 April 2006 11:32 |
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axel [at] white-eagle.invalid.uk wrote:
> Last night in a restaurant my friend's Visa card was not accepted
> as a means of payment because it was a foreign issued card with
> 'chip & pin'. By 'refused' I do not mean by any electronic system,
> just that the resataurant refused to consider it on the grounds
> that the bank had told them not to accept any cards not fitted
> with a 'chip & pin' facility.
>
> Fortunately we had other means of payment.
>
> No other place where the same card had been used in the last week
> in the UK had had any problems with accepting it.
>
Correct me if I'm wrong, but AIUI the only issue is that if chip and PIN
is *not* used the shop or restauranteur is on his own if there is any
fraud (like the card was stolen), whereas if it *is* used this bank will
carry the can.
john2
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377939 ] |
Sa, 08 April 2006 12:00 |
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> So where does that leave 'chip and signature'?
I was told by a branch of the Co-Op they no longer accepted chip and
signature cards and that they were "illegal" - AFTER I signed the slip.
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377945 ] |
Sa, 08 April 2006 13:10 |
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john2 wrote:
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but AIUI the only issue is that if chip and PIN
> is *not* used the shop or restaurateur is on his own if there is any
> fraud (like the card was stolen), whereas if it *is* used this bank will
> carry the can.
>
This does not make sense. If a merchant has a 'VISA' sign up, he should
accept ALL VISA cards, if a bank tells him not to accept some types of VISA
cards, the bank would appear to be breaching its franchise agreement with
VISA. AFAIK a merchant can safely accept a VISA card as long as:
1. He gets authorisation where necessary (this will generally be done
automatically nowadays) AND
2. The signature on the voucher matches the signature on the back of the
card.
3. The card is not on a 'badlist' circular (with automatic checking,
badlists are probably a thing of the past).
As far as I can see if a customer produces a valid VISA card where the
restaurant holds itself out to accept VISA, but the restaurateur refuses to
accept it after the meal is consumed, any attempted prosecution for
obtaining credit by fraud will fail as 'mens rea' (the intention) is not
present. This still leaves the messy matter of an arrest, it would be
interesting to know if people can sue claimants whose wrongful complaints
result in arrests.
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377947 ] |
Sa, 08 April 2006 13:38 |
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In message <MPG.1ea19a0a36e16d04989683 [at] news.individual.net>, Colin
Wilson <void [at] btinternet.com> writes
>> So where does that leave 'chip and signature'?
>
>I was told by a branch of the Co-Op they no longer accepted chip and
>signature cards and that they were "illegal" - AFTER I signed the slip.
I was told by my local Tesco store, having had a trolley full of goods
scanned through, that I could not pay using a card if I did not have the
pin number. Oddly, as soon as I said "OK then, just get someone to pop
this lot back on the shelf for me would you?" they suddenly became able
to allow me to sign for it instead.
--
Mike_B
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377949 ] |
Sa, 08 April 2006 13:57 |
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Peter wrote:
> As far as I can see if a customer produces a valid VISA card where the
> restaurant holds itself out to accept VISA, but the restaurateur refuses to
> accept it after the meal is consumed, any attempted prosecution for
> obtaining credit by fraud will fail as 'mens rea' (the intention) is not
> present. This still leaves the messy matter of an arrest, it would be
> interesting to know if people can sue claimants whose wrongful complaints
> result in arrests.
Unfortunately some merchants just make up their own rules. About 9
months ago I attempted to use my non chip and pin Visa debit card to pay
for a meal at a Chinese restaurant. The card issuer simply had not
issued chip & pin cards at this stage. The restaurant refused to accept
it. I phoned up the card issuer when I got back who told me that they
should have accepted it, and that I should go back to the restaurant and
tell them this.
I declined on the basis that it was no longer my problem. Thankfully I
had alternative forms of payment. The restaurant still has a disclaimer
on their menu stating that only chip & pin payment is accepted. I
believe that they display the Visa and Mastercard logo.
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377953 ] |
Sa, 08 April 2006 15:08 |
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On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 09:05:54 GMT, axel [at] white-eagle.invalid.uk wrote:
>
>Last night in a restaurant my friend's Visa card was not accepted
>as a means of payment because it was a foreign issued card with
>'chip & pin'. By 'refused' I do not mean by any electronic system,
>just that the resataurant refused to consider it on the grounds
>that the bank had told them not to accept any cards not fitted
>with a 'chip & pin' facility.
>
>Fortunately we had other means of payment.
>
>No other place where the same card had been used in the last week
>in the UK had had any problems with accepting it.
>
>I find the reason given as spurious - I cannot image that the banks
>providing merchant card facilities intend that visitors to the UK
>should not be able to use credit cards - and I suspect that the
>staff at the restaurant have misinterpreted the regulations by
>applying what perhaps should only apply to UK issued cards to all
>cards. Would this be correct?
>
>Had we had no other means of payment (or just decided to be bolshy),
>I cannot see that the restaurant could have done much except either
>accept the card or an IOU considering that the Visa sign was clearly
>displayed on the door and neither there nor on the menu was there
>any indication that only 'chip & pin' cards would be accepted.
>Thoughts?
I wonder how merchants are expected to recognize a card as being from
outside the UK? There's often very little to visibly distinguish a UK
card from a non-UK card. I know it could be done by an analysis of the
card number, but that would seem to be beyond the capability of an
average restaurant cashier.
Chris
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377954 ] |
Sa, 08 April 2006 15:25 |
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On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 09:05:54 GMT, axel [at] white-eagle.invalid.uk wrote:
>
>Last night in a restaurant my friend's Visa card was not accepted
>as a means of payment because it was a foreign issued card
>with'chip & pin'.
> By 'refused' I do not mean by any electronic system,
>just that the resataurant refused to consider it on the grounds
>that the bank had told them not to accept any cards not fitted
>with a 'chip & pin' facility.
>
I'm confused ..I take it you mean that the card did NOT have a Chip + Pin .??
Stuart
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377955 ] |
Sa, 08 April 2006 15:42 |
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Chris Blunt wrote:
> I wonder how merchants are expected to recognize a card as being from
> outside the UK? There's often very little to visibly distinguish a UK
> card from a non-UK card. I know it could be done by an analysis of the
> card number, but that would seem to be beyond the capability of an
> average restaurant cashier.
They don't have to know. They have a PIN machine. They stick the card
in. The machine chats to the card, and the card tells the machine
whether to ask for a PIN or for a signature. Easy.
The bank instructions to the retailer are not "if you don't get a PIN,
then you carry the risk", but "if you don't get a PIN *when the card
asks for it*, then you carry the risk".
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377958 ] |
Sa, 08 April 2006 17:11 |
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axel [at] white-eagle.invalid.uk wrote:
>Had we had no other means of payment (or just decided to be bolshy),
>I cannot see that the restaurant could have done much except either
>accept the card or an IOU considering that the Visa sign was clearly
>displayed on the door and neither there nor on the menu was there
>any indication that only 'chip & pin' cards would be accepted.
>Thoughts?
I got some petrol in a Texaco station and handed over my non-chip and pin
card. The woman put it through the stripe reader and told me is was
'rejected'. Tried it again with the same result. Never had a problem with
the stripe on the card before or since. She then tells me she is not
allowed to manually enter a card number so I could not use that card to
pay.
Faulty card stripe reader and stupid rules requiring the stripe to be read?
Smelt very fishy to me.
Anyone else have similar experience?
--
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377959 ] |
Sa, 08 April 2006 17:44 |
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On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 16:11:44 +0100, nospam <nospam [at] please.invalid> wrote:
>axel [at] white-eagle.invalid.uk wrote:
>
>>Had we had no other means of payment (or just decided to be bolshy),
>>I cannot see that the restaurant could have done much except either
>>accept the card or an IOU considering that the Visa sign was clearly
>>displayed on the door and neither there nor on the menu was there
>>any indication that only 'chip & pin' cards would be accepted.
>>Thoughts?
>
>I got some petrol in a Texaco station and handed over my non-chip and pin
>card. The woman put it through the stripe reader and told me is was
>'rejected'. Tried it again with the same result. Never had a problem with
>the stripe on the card before or since. She then tells me she is not
>allowed to manually enter a card number so I could not use that card to
>pay.
>
>Faulty card stripe reader and stupid rules requiring the stripe to be read?
>Smelt very fishy to me.
>
>Anyone else have similar experience?
>
>
I went in to a filling station a couple of days afte Chip+ pin started and the
machine rejected the sale .The attendant said it had happened a lot and entered
the details as they did before chip+ Pin so they could do it so why not the one
you went to
Stuart
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377960 ] |
Sa, 08 April 2006 18:32 |
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Mike_B wrote:
> In message <MPG.1ea19a0a36e16d04989683 [at] news.individual.net>, Colin
> Wilson <void [at] btinternet.com> writes
>>> So where does that leave 'chip and signature'?
>>
>> I was told by a branch of the Co-Op they no longer accepted chip and
>> signature cards and that they were "illegal" - AFTER I signed the
>> slip.
>
> I was told by my local Tesco store, having had a trolley full of goods
> scanned through, that I could not pay using a card if I did not have
> the pin number. Oddly, as soon as I said "OK then, just get someone
> to pop this lot back on the shelf for me would you?" they suddenly
> became able to allow me to sign for it instead.
If you go to a Tesco store that has those new self-service checkouts, you
can pay by card.....All you do is swipe the magnetic strip on the
card.....It doesn't do anything with the chip on the card, and it doesn't
ask you for a PIN or a signature.....It simply reads the magnetic strip and
then debits the amount due from your card.....
If they can do that at a self-service checkout, why can't the cashier do the
same?.....
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377963 ] |
Sa, 08 April 2006 19:41 |
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In uk.finance Stuart <stuart [at] removexpozure4uremove.plus.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 09:05:54 GMT, axel [at] white-eagle.invalid.uk wrote:
>>Last night in a restaurant my friend's Visa card was not accepted
>>as a means of payment because it was a foreign issued card
>>with'chip & pin'.
>> By 'refused' I do not mean by any electronic system,
>>just that the resataurant refused to consider it on the grounds
>>that the bank had told them not to accept any cards not fitted
>>with a 'chip & pin' facility.
> I'm confused ..I take it you mean that the card did NOT have a Chip + Pin .??
Yes, I mean exactly that.
Axel
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377964 ] |
Sa, 08 April 2006 20:29 |
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In message <7ARZf.410$eB5.143 [at] newsfe7-gui.ntli.net>, Swampy Bogtrotter
<samandjanetknox [at] tessco.net> wrote
>
>If you go to a Tesco store that has those new self-service checkouts, you
>can pay by card.....All you do is swipe the magnetic strip on the
>card.....It doesn't do anything with the chip on the card, and it doesn't
>ask you for a PIN or a signature.....It simply reads the magnetic strip and
>then debits the amount due from your card.....
Can any stolen card be used Tesco without any form of checking?
--
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377965 ] |
Sa, 08 April 2006 20:57 |
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Alan wrote:
> In message <7ARZf.410$eB5.143 [at] newsfe7-gui.ntli.net>, Swampy Bogtrotter
> <samandjanetknox [at] tessco.net> wrote
>>
>>If you go to a Tesco store that has those new self-service checkouts, you
>>can pay by card.....All you do is swipe the magnetic strip on the
>>card.....It doesn't do anything with the chip on the card, and it doesn't
>>ask you for a PIN or a signature.....It simply reads the magnetic strip
>>and then debits the amount due from your card.....
>
> Can any stolen card be used Tesco without any form of checking?
Yes, but you can only buy stolen groceries.
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377969 ] |
So, 09 April 2006 00:08 |
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Colin Wilson <void [at] btinternet.com> wrote
>> So where does that leave 'chip and signature'?
>
>I was told by a branch of the Co-Op they no longer accepted chip and
>signature cards and that they were "illegal" - AFTER I signed the slip.
I recently had to sign receipts at ALDI and PC World...
--
Gordon Harris
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377971 ] |
So, 09 April 2006 00:45 |
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Alan wrote:
> In message <7ARZf.410$eB5.143 [at] newsfe7-gui.ntli.net>, Swampy Bogtrotter
> <samandjanetknox [at] tessco.net> wrote
>
>>
>> If you go to a Tesco store that has those new self-service
>> checkouts, you can pay by card.....All you do is swipe the magnetic
>> strip on the card.....It doesn't do anything with the chip on the
>> card, and it doesn't ask you for a PIN or a signature.....It simply
>> reads the magnetic strip and then debits the amount due from your
>> card.....
>
> Can any stolen card be used Tesco without any form of checking?
So long as you use the self-service checkouts, it would appear so.....
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377973 ] |
So, 09 April 2006 01:53 |
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In message <m2XZf.20560$g76.11026 [at] newsfe2-gui.ntli.net>, Swampy
Bogtrotter <samandjanetknox [at] tessco.net> wrote
>Alan wrote:
>> In message <7ARZf.410$eB5.143 [at] newsfe7-gui.ntli.net>, Swampy Bogtrotter
>> <samandjanetknox [at] tessco.net> wrote
>>
>>>
>>> If you go to a Tesco store that has those new self-service
>>> checkouts, you can pay by card.....All you do is swipe the magnetic
>>> strip on the card.....It doesn't do anything with the chip on the
>>> card, and it doesn't ask you for a PIN or a signature.....It simply
>>> reads the magnetic strip and then debits the amount due from your
>>> card.....
>>
>> Can any stolen card be used Tesco without any form of checking?
>
>So long as you use the self-service checkouts, it would appear so.....
>
If the stolen cards are used by underage drinkers they could buy as much
alcohol as they want.
The self -service check-out could cost a _lot_ more than the money than
Tesco are attempting to save
I Tesco are wanting to provide a better service on the check-out they
need to adopt the policy of Lidl or Aldi where the customer throughput
per staff member must be around 10 times greater. Doing away with
vouchers for schools and the 'cash-back vouchers' would save them
millions of GBP in time saved at the check-out.
--
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377974 ] |
So, 09 April 2006 02:14 |
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Chris Howells wrote:
> Peter wrote:
>> As far as I can see if a customer produces a valid VISA card where the
>> restaurant holds itself out to accept VISA, but the restaurateur refuses
>> to accept it after the meal is consumed, any attempted prosecution for
>> obtaining credit by fraud will fail as 'mens rea' (the intention) is not
>> present. This still leaves the messy matter of an arrest, it would be
>> interesting to know if people can sue claimants whose wrongful complaints
>> result in arrests.
>
> Unfortunately some merchants just make up their own rules. About 9
> months ago I attempted to use my non chip and pin Visa debit card to pay
> for a meal at a Chinese restaurant. The card issuer simply had not
> issued chip & pin cards at this stage. The restaurant refused to accept
> it. I phoned up the card issuer when I got back who told me that they
> should have accepted it, and that I should go back to the restaurant and
> tell them this.
>
> I declined on the basis that it was no longer my problem. Thankfully I
> had alternative forms of payment. The restaurant still has a disclaimer
> on their menu stating that only chip & pin payment is accepted. I
> believe that they display the Visa and Mastercard logo.
As long as they warn you that they may not accept some types of VISA cards
before you order, they would have covered themselves with respect to the
customer. However they may have breached their merchant agreement, and if
the banks are encouraging this behaviour, the banks are most probably in
breach of their VISA franchise agreements. Incidentally having a VISA
sticker in the window, on the cash desk etc is a requirement of merchant
agreements.
If a merchant with a VISA sticker refuses to accept all valid VISA cards,
you should always complain to your bank. Agreed one complaint will go
nowhere, but a significant number of similar complaints will attract their
attention.
By the way, does anyone know whether there is the same problem with
Mastercard?
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377976 ] |
So, 09 April 2006 09:07 |
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In message <7ARZf.410$eB5.143 [at] newsfe7-gui.ntli.net>, Swampy Bogtrotter
<samandjanetknox [at] tessco.net> writes
>Mike_B wrote:
>> In message <MPG.1ea19a0a36e16d04989683 [at] news.individual.net>, Colin
>> Wilson <void [at] btinternet.com> writes
>>>> So where does that leave 'chip and signature'?
>>>
>>> I was told by a branch of the Co-Op they no longer accepted chip and
>>> signature cards and that they were "illegal" - AFTER I signed the
>>> slip.
>>
>> I was told by my local Tesco store, having had a trolley full of goods
>> scanned through, that I could not pay using a card if I did not have
>> the pin number. Oddly, as soon as I said "OK then, just get someone
>> to pop this lot back on the shelf for me would you?" they suddenly
>> became able to allow me to sign for it instead.
>
>If you go to a Tesco store that has those new self-service checkouts, you
>can pay by card.....All you do is swipe the magnetic strip on the
>card.....It doesn't do anything with the chip on the card, and it doesn't
>ask you for a PIN or a signature.....It simply reads the magnetic strip and
>then debits the amount due from your card.....
>
>If they can do that at a self-service checkout, why can't the cashier do the
>same?.....
>
>
Indeed, a huge security hole that I have raised with the Tesco branch
--
Mike_B
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377980 ] |
So, 09 April 2006 10:38 |
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If you go to ALDI where there is a visa sign displayed and try to pay
with a visa electron card, you will be shown the door..
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377981 ] |
So, 09 April 2006 10:43 |
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I had a similar problem but when they took on board that if they didn't
take the card then they were not going to get paid at all (I had 5p in
cash) they suddenly found a way of processing it manually.
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377982 ] |
So, 09 April 2006 11:11 |
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At 10:32:56 on 08/04/2006, john2 delighted uk.finance by announcing:
> axel [at] white-eagle.invalid.uk wrote:
> > Last night in a restaurant my friend's Visa card was not accepted
> > as a means of payment because it was a foreign issued card with
> > 'chip & pin'. By 'refused' I do not mean by any electronic system,
> > just that the resataurant refused to consider it on the grounds
> > that the bank had told them not to accept any cards not fitted
> > with a 'chip & pin' facility.
> >
> > Fortunately we had other means of payment.
> >
> > No other place where the same card had been used in the last week
> > in the UK had had any problems with accepting it.
> >
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but AIUI the only issue is that if chip and PIN is
> not used the shop or restauranteur is on his own if there is any fraud (like
> the card was stolen), whereas if it is used this bank will carry the can.
OK, correction: The liability is carried by whoever is not able to perform a
C&P transaction. In this case, it would be the issuer of the card.
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377985 ] |
So, 09 April 2006 12:12 |
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In message <1144571903.679963.262200 [at] j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
nik.morgan [at] mac.com wrote
>If you go to ALDI where there is a visa sign displayed and try to pay
>with a visa electron card, you will be shown the door..
>
Aldi only take debit cards so would they have a Visa logo displayed?
--
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377986 ] |
So, 09 April 2006 13:10 |
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> nik.morgan [at] mac.com wrote
> >If you go to ALDI where there is a visa sign displayed and try
> >to pay with a visa electron card, you will be shown the door..
>
"Alan" wrote
> Aldi only take debit cards so would they have a Visa logo displayed?
Why not? I have a VISA Debit card...
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377988 ] |
So, 09 April 2006 14:49 |
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Alan wrote:
> If the stolen cards are used by underage drinkers they could buy as much
> alcohol as they want.
>
> The self -service check-out could cost a _lot_ more than the money than
> Tesco are attempting to save
Rubbish. If you use a self-service checkout to buy alcohol, a member of
staff is required to approve the purchase - precisely so this problem
is avoided.
> I Tesco are wanting to provide a better service on the check-out they
> need to adopt the policy of Lidl or Aldi where the customer throughput
> per staff member must be around 10 times greater. Doing away with
> vouchers for schools and the 'cash-back vouchers' would save them
> millions of GBP in time saved at the check-out.
Cashback is offered largely for the retailers' convenience in the first
place - it allows them to recycle the cash they are paid for groceries
rather than having to bank it, which saves them a great deal of money.
--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377989 ] |
So, 09 April 2006 15:09 |
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At 13:49:30 on 09/04/2006, John B delighted uk.finance by announcing:
> Alan wrote:
> > If the stolen cards are used by underage drinkers they could buy as much
> > alcohol as they want.
> >
> > The self -service check-out could cost a lot more than the money than
> > Tesco are attempting to save
>
> Rubbish. If you use a self-service checkout to buy alcohol, a member of
> staff is required to approve the purchase - precisely so this problem
> is avoided.
>
> > I Tesco are wanting to provide a better service on the check-out they
> > need to adopt the policy of Lidl or Aldi where the customer throughput
> > per staff member must be around 10 times greater. Doing away with
> > vouchers for schools and the 'cash-back vouchers' would save them
> > millions of GBP in time saved at the check-out.
>
> Cashback is offered largely for the retailers' convenience in the first
> place - it allows them to recycle the cash they are paid for groceries
> rather than having to bank it, which saves them a great deal of money.
I think he may mean loyalty vouchers rather than debit card transactions.
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377990 ] |
So, 09 April 2006 16:17 |
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In uk.finance jjamies [at] tiscali.co.uk wrote:
> You may like to report your experience to the Chip & PIN people via the
> following link:
> http://www.cardwatch.org.uk/default.asp?sectionid=5&page id=91
> Good luck
Thanks for the link... it lead me to something very specific at:
http://www.chipandpin.co.uk/consumer/2005/problems.html
And I have made a report there.
Axel
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377991 ] |
So, 09 April 2006 15:59 |
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In message <1144586970.353179.13610 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>, John
B <spam [at] johnband.org> wrote
>Alan wrote:
>> If the stolen cards are used by underage drinkers they could buy as much
>> alcohol as they want.
>>
>> The self -service check-out could cost a _lot_ more than the money than
>> Tesco are attempting to save
>
>Rubbish. If you use a self-service checkout to buy alcohol, a member of
>staff is required to approve the purchase - precisely so this problem
>is avoided.
Then why are not the same members of the permanent staff required on
that checkout not checking for stolen cards?
>Cashback is offered largely for the retailers' convenience in the first
>place - it allows them to recycle the cash they are paid for groceries
>rather than having to bank it, which saves them a great deal of money.
>
I'm writing about those paper vouchers sent through the post based on
the amount a customer has spent in the last 3 months. Dealing with these
bits of paper at the checkout takes many times longer than taking money
from a credit/debit card.
--
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377992 ] |
So, 09 April 2006 16:36 |
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In uk.finance Peter <peterwn [at] parazzdise.net.nz> wrote:
> Chris Howells wrote:
> As long as they warn you that they may not accept some types of VISA cards
> before you order, they would have covered themselves with respect to the
> customer. However they may have breached their merchant agreement, and if
> the banks are encouraging this behaviour, the banks are most probably in
> breach of their VISA franchise agreements. Incidentally having a VISA
> sticker in the window, on the cash desk etc is a requirement of merchant
> agreements.
> If a merchant with a VISA sticker refuses to accept all valid VISA cards,
> you should always complain to your bank. Agreed one complaint will go
> nowhere, but a significant number of similar complaints will attract their
> attention.
True... but then I doubt that there will be more than one complaint
to the Bank of America about a small restaurant in Birmingham.
> By the way, does anyone know whether there is the same problem with
> Mastercard?
I got the impression that it would have been a problem although I
didn't check. Oddly enough when I mentioned AmEx I was told "that's
a whole different ball game" and they would accept their
cards without a pin although we ended up paying cash.
Axel
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377993 ] |
So, 09 April 2006 17:04 |
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John B wrote:
> Alan wrote:
>> If the stolen cards are used by underage drinkers they could buy as
>> much alcohol as they want.
>>
>> The self -service check-out could cost a _lot_ more than the money
>> than Tesco are attempting to save
>
> Rubbish. If you use a self-service checkout to buy alcohol, a member
> of staff is required to approve the purchase - precisely so this
> problem is avoided.
But there's nothing to stop someone using a stolen card to buy non-alcohol
goods.....Isn't that just as illegal as allowing minors to buy booze?......
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377994 ] |
So, 09 April 2006 17:05 |
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In message <5xjuQbIlzEOEFw$A [at] amac.f2s.com>, Alan
<junk_reply [at] amac.f2s.com> writes
>If the stolen cards are used by underage drinkers they could buy as
>much alcohol as they want.
When I use them to buy alcohol it says that the item needs to be
authorised and a nearby assistant authorises it.
>
>The self -service check-out could cost a _lot_ more than the money than
>Tesco are attempting to save
>
>I Tesco are wanting to provide a better service on the check-out they
>need to adopt the policy of Lidl or Aldi where the customer throughput
>per staff member must be around 10 times greater. Doing away with
>vouchers for schools and the 'cash-back vouchers' would save them
>millions of GBP in time saved at the check-out.
--
John Boyle
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #377995 ] |
So, 09 April 2006 17:06 |
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In message <Mm5T11ANNROEFwoi [at] amac.f2s.com>, Alan
<junk_reply [at] amac.f2s.com> writes
>Then why are not the same members of the permanent staff required on
>that checkout not checking for stolen cards?
How would they do that then? The terminal spots those that are known to
be stolen.
--
John Boyle
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #378000 ] |
So, 09 April 2006 19:56 |
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In message <0o9_f.932$gq3.518 [at] newsfe7-gui.ntli.net>, Swampy Bogtrotter
<samandjanetknox [at] tessco.net> writes
>But there's nothing to stop someone using a stolen card
Yes there is, the card transaction would not be authorised by the
merchant system. (Assuming its loss has been reported that is).
--
John Boyle
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #378001 ] |
So, 09 April 2006 20:12 |
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<axel [at] white-eagle.invalid.uk> wrote in message
news:S1LZf.49817$wl.4388 [at] text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
> Last night in a restaurant my friend's Visa card was not accepted
> as a means of payment because it was a foreign issued card with
> 'chip & pin'. By 'refused' I do not mean by any electronic system,
> just that the resataurant refused to consider it on the grounds
> that the bank had told them not to accept any cards not fitted
> with a 'chip & pin' facility.
>
> Fortunately we had other means of payment.
>
> No other place where the same card had been used in the last week
> in the UK had had any problems with accepting it.
>
> I find the reason given as spurious - I cannot image that the banks
> providing merchant card facilities intend that visitors to the UK
> should not be able to use credit cards - and I suspect that the
> staff at the restaurant have misinterpreted the regulations by
> applying what perhaps should only apply to UK issued cards to all
> cards. Would this be correct?
>
> Had we had no other means of payment (or just decided to be bolshy),
> I cannot see that the restaurant could have done much except either
> accept the card or an IOU considering that the Visa sign was clearly
> displayed on the door and neither there nor on the menu was there
> any indication that only 'chip & pin' cards would be accepted.
> Thoughts?
>
> Axel
I work for a Credit card terminal Helpdesk for technical and card help.
Chip & Pin is mainly dependent on the CARD issuing bank. If a card is Chip &
PIN enabled the credit card terminal will ask for a PIN... IF the merchants
terminal is Chip & PIN enabled.
If the terminal AND the card are Chip & Pin enabled then the bank issuing
the card is likely to decline the transaction IF a PIN is not entered.
However, IF the PIN system on the terminal is damaged, most machines will
revert to signature, but not all.
Clive
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| Re: Credit card without chip and pin [message #378002 ] |
So, 09 April 2006 20:21 |
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At 18:56:56 on 09/04/2006, john boyle delighted uk.finance by announcing:
> In message <0o9_f.932$gq3.518 [at] newsfe7-gui.ntli.net>, Swampy Bogtrotter
> <samandjanetknox [at] tessco.net> writes
>
> > But there's nothing to stop someone using a stolen card
>
> Yes there is, the card transaction would not be authorised by the merchant
> system. (Assuming its loss has been reported that is).
And assuming the transaction went online or that the hotcard list had been
updated since the report.
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