OT: x-rays

"...more than half the deaths from cancer and heart disease would not have
occurred but for medical X-rays."

Re: x-rays

"Ed" <> wrote in message
news:
> "...more than half the deaths from cancer and heart disease would not have
> occurred but for medical X-rays."
>
>

Stepping outdoors, is a risk also.

Re: OT: x-rays

Ed wrote:

> "...more than half the deaths from cancer and heart disease
> would not have occurred but for medical X-rays."
>

Unlikely, according to my MD brother, at least for treatments given
since the 1970s.

Re: x-rays

Gary C wrote:

> Stepping outdoors, is a risk also.

A risk these people: www.imdb.com/title/tt0219405/
try to avoid.

Re: OT: x-rays

"Johnny Hageyama" <> wrote in message
news:
> Ed wrote:
>
>> "...more than half the deaths from cancer and heart disease
>> would not have occurred but for medical X-rays."
>>
>
> Unlikely, according to my MD brother, at least for treatments given
> since the 1970s.

I know many MD's have dismissed the study but still I wonder if there is a
difference between an MD and a PhD in molecular and cell biology, one that
spent a great deal of time focusing on the problem.

Re: OT: x-rays

Ed <> wrote:

> "Johnny Hageyama" <> wrote in message
> news:
>> Ed wrote:
>>
>>> "...more than half the deaths from cancer and heart disease
>>> would not have occurred but for medical X-rays."
>>>
>>
>> Unlikely, according to my MD brother, at least for treatments given
>> since the 1970s.

> I know many MD's have dismissed the study but still I wonder if
> there is a difference between an MD and a PhD in molecular and cell
> biology, one that spent a great deal of time focusing on the
> problem.

The distinction really is between someone who does research/is a
scientist vs. someone who is not. Most M.D.s are only practicing and
don't have much idea of the latest molecular and cellular research (my
MDs certainly don't). In this regard, I'd trust a series of
peer-reviewed publications compared to a random news story.

Another minor concern is that this guy is an emeritus professor. I
expect that by the time I am one (after winning a Nobel or two, of
course), I will be pretending to do all kinds of crazy research.

And of course, Berkeley also has people like Duesberg who was
ultimately wrong about HIV/AIDS even though he did raise some good
questions.

--Ram

Re: OT: x-rays

Ed wrote:
> "Johnny Hageyama" <> wrote in message
> news:
> Ed wrote:

> "...more than half the deaths from cancer and heart disease
> would not have occurred but for medical X-rays."
>

>> Unlikely, according to my MD brother, at least for treatments
>> given since the 1970s.
>
> I know many MD's have dismissed the study but still I wonder
> if there is a difference between an MD and a PhD in molecular
> and cell biology, one that spent a great deal of time focusing
> on the problem.

Radiologists know a great deal about the effects, but generally MDs who
aren't specialists aren't scientists, unless they get science
doctorates.

Re: OT: x-rays

"Johnny Hageyama" <> wrote

>>> Unlikely, according to my MD brother, at least for treatments
>>> given since the 1970s.
>>
>> I know many MD's have dismissed the study but still I wonder
>> if there is a difference between an MD and a PhD in molecular
>> and cell biology, one that spent a great deal of time focusing
>> on the problem.
>
> Radiologists know a great deal about the effects, but generally MDs who
> aren't specialists aren't scientists, unless they get science
> doctorates.

Johnny, that was my point. Would you tend to believe an MD that says
"unlikely" or a PhD in cell biology, one that has spent much time
researching this, that says "definitely".

Re: x-rays

Gary C wrote:
> "Ed" <> wrote in message
> news:
>
>>"...more than half the deaths from cancer and heart disease would not have
>>occurred but for medical X-rays."
>>
>>
>
>
> Stepping outdoors, is a risk also.
>
>
So is not stepping outdoors.

Re: OT: x-rays

Ed wrote:
> "...more than half the deaths from cancer and heart disease would not have
> occurred but for medical X-rays."
>

A lot of X-ray use is in dentistry. I have an annual x-ray from my
dentist, much less frequent than from my doctor. I wonder what's the
correlation between cancer and concentration of dentists?

By just reading the article, it seems like this guy already has a
theory, and he went in search of data to support his theory, not a good
way to do scientific research.

Re: OT: x-rays

"PeterL" <> wrote

> Ed wrote:
>> "...more than half the deaths from cancer and heart disease would not
>> have
>> occurred but for medical X-rays."
>>
>
> A lot of X-ray use is in dentistry. I have an annual x-ray from my
> dentist, much less frequent than from my doctor. I wonder what's the
> correlation between cancer and concentration of dentists?
>
> By just reading the article, it seems like this guy already has a
> theory, and he went in search of data to support his theory, not a good
> way to do scientific research.

Read it again.

If you don't want to, just read this:

"Each dose, no matter how low, produces mutations, so by the time you're 50,
all of these events have added to the mutation load in your cells."

Re: OT: x-rays

"Ed" <> wrote in message
news:
> "Each dose, no matter how low, produces mutations, so by the time you're
> 50, all of these events have added to the mutation load in your cells."

I had a professor in college that knew a thing or two about radiation. Dr.
Herman Donnert was his name, dean of the nuclear engineering department.
President Eisenhower personally invited him to emigrate to the US in the
1950s. He designed the nuclear warheads for the Polaris missile, way back
when, and even when I was in college, he occassionally disappeared for a
consult down in New Mexico. He was definitely one of the most interesting
and entertaining professors from my undergrad experience.

He proved in class that one received more daily radiation from cohabitation
(sleeping in the same bed with someone, every night) than from most other
sources. Why? Potassium-40, a radioactive isotope, that people have in their
bodies from eating many popular foods (bananas are one of the "hottest" food
items because of this). I remember some students swore off bananas after
this class.

It was interesting because he used these facts, and some basic logic, to
convince a bunch of pink-pantied Kansas University students to halt their
sit-in protest against the Wolf Creek Nuclear Power Plant, many years ago.
The powers that be at KU invited Dr. Donnert from my alma mater to help
quell student unrest. During his presentation to the protestors, he used a
slide that showed a man and woman in bed together, while he detailed the
exposure from cohabitation. Some woman in the front row who proudly wore her
mullet and poorly fitting men's Levi's stood up and said "But I don't sleep
with a man!"

Dr. Donnert chuckled, pointed at the overhead picture, and said "I didn't
say you had to sleep with a man. You'll receive similar radiation from your
girlfriend."

This brought down the house with guffaws of laughter, and the militant
lesbian stomped off, blushing in humilation. The protests ended shortly
after, because even KU students were smart enough to realize that nuclear
power wasn't as bad as the tree huggers wanted them to believe.

Brent D. Gardner, ChFC
Chartered Financial Consultant


"Building a deck is NOT as hard as you think! I've watched TV personality
Bob Vila do it many times, and he is a regular 'do-it-yourselfer' just like
you, except that he has knowledge, skill, an unlimited budget and a large
staff of experts." -- Dave Barry

The Chartered Life Underwriter (CLU) and Chartered Financial Consultant
(ChFC), designations owned and exclusively offered by The American College,
signify the highest standards of academic study and professional excellence
in the financial services industry.

Re: OT: x-rays

Different types of radiation interact differently with the body and of
course, the vast amount of sunlight is beneficial radiation. Even
sticking to ionising radiation, we still have a distinction between
different types. The main issue is how mutagenic a particular type of
radiation is.

That said, there is a ton of stuff that we're exposed to in the
environment that is mutagenic in nature. These all add to the
"mutation load" which is why were have things like cancers. It's
generally a trade off and I myself think the benefits of nuclear
energy is worth it.

--Ram

bgardner20 <> wrote:

> "Ed" <> wrote in message
> news:
>> "Each dose, no matter how low, produces mutations, so by the time you're
>> 50, all of these events have added to the mutation load in your cells."

> I had a professor in college that knew a thing or two about radiation. Dr.
> Herman Donnert was his name, dean of the nuclear engineering department.
> President Eisenhower personally invited him to emigrate to the US in the
> 1950s. He designed the nuclear warheads for the Polaris missile, way back
> when, and even when I was in college, he occassionally disappeared for a
> consult down in New Mexico. He was definitely one of the most interesting
> and entertaining professors from my undergrad experience.

> He proved in class that one received more daily radiation from cohabitation
> (sleeping in the same bed with someone, every night) than from most other
> sources. Why? Potassium-40, a radioactive isotope, that people have in their
> bodies from eating many popular foods (bananas are one of the "hottest" food
> items because of this). I remember some students swore off bananas after
> this class.

> It was interesting because he used these facts, and some basic logic, to
> convince a bunch of pink-pantied Kansas University students to halt their
> sit-in protest against the Wolf Creek Nuclear Power Plant, many years ago.
> The powers that be at KU invited Dr. Donnert from my alma mater to help
> quell student unrest. During his presentation to the protestors, he used a
> slide that showed a man and woman in bed together, while he detailed the
> exposure from cohabitation. Some woman in the front row who proudly wore her
> mullet and poorly fitting men's Levi's stood up and said "But I don't sleep
> with a man!"

> Dr. Donnert chuckled, pointed at the overhead picture, and said "I didn't
> say you had to sleep with a man. You'll receive similar radiation from your
> girlfriend."

> This brought down the house with guffaws of laughter, and the militant
> lesbian stomped off, blushing in humilation. The protests ended shortly
> after, because even KU students were smart enough to realize that nuclear
> power wasn't as bad as the tree huggers wanted them to believe.

> Brent D. Gardner, ChFC
> Chartered Financial Consultant
>

> "Building a deck is NOT as hard as you think! I've watched TV personality
> Bob Vila do it many times, and he is a regular 'do-it-yourselfer' just like
> you, except that he has knowledge, skill, an unlimited budget and a large
> staff of experts." -- Dave Barry

> The Chartered Life Underwriter (CLU) and Chartered Financial Consultant
> (ChFC), designations owned and exclusively offered by The American College,
> signify the highest standards of academic study and professional excellence
> in the financial services industry.

Re: OT: x-rays

Ed wrote:
> "Johnny Hageyama" <> wrote

> > Radiologists know a great deal about the effects, but
> > generally MDs who aren't specialists aren't scientists,
> > unless they get science doctorates.
>
> Johnny, that was my point. Would you tend to believe an MD
> that says "unlikely" or a PhD in cell biology, one that
> has spent much time researching this, that says "definitely".

I'd tend to believe the consensus of the scientists, including MD
specialists, with the most expertise in the relevant field, and I would
be skeptical of lone voices because such a high percentage are wrong or
even crackpots.

Re: OT: x-rays

bgardner20 wrote:

> "Ed" <> wrote in message
> news:

> > "Each dose, no matter how low, produces mutations, so by
> > the time you're 50, all of these events have added to the
> > mutation load in your cells."
>
> I had a professor in college that knew a thing or two about
> radiation. Dr. Herman Donnert was his name, dean of the nuclear
> engineering department.

> He proved in class that one received more daily radiation
> from cohabitation (sleeping in the same bed with someone,
> every night) than from most other sources. Why? Potassium-40,
> a radioactive isotope, that people have in their bodies from
> eating many popular foods (bananas are one of the "hottest" food
> items because of this). I remember some students swore off
> bananas after this class.
>
> It was interesting because he used these facts, and some basic
> logic, to convince a bunch of pink-pantied Kansas University
> students to halt their sit-in protest against the Wolf Creek
> Nuclear Power Plant, many years ago.

The thread isn't about background levels of radiation but much higher
levels used in medical procedures, making your anecdote irrelevant.
Furthermore, few nuclear protestors have been concerned about the
normal levels of radiation given off by reactors and the fuel
processing cycle (lower than the levels from coal and natural gas
combustion) but about potential radiation releases caused by disasters.

Re: OT: x-rays

"Ram Samudrala" <> wrote in message
news:dapdat$mbo$
> Different types of radiation interact differently with the body and of
> course, the vast amount of sunlight is beneficial radiation. Even
> sticking to ionising radiation, we still have a distinction between
> different types. The main issue is how mutagenic a particular type of
> radiation is.
>
> That said, there is a ton of stuff that we're exposed to in the
> environment that is mutagenic in nature. These all add to the
> "mutation load" which is why were have things like cancers. It's
> generally a trade off and I myself think the benefits of nuclear
> energy is worth it.

I agree. The problem here in America is we have not educated rank and file
people about these things.

As much as I like to poke fun at the french, they're ahead of the world in
this area. They produce more power than they can use, selling the excess to
other countries.

Here, a shortage is fast approaching in some parts of the country.

Brent D. Gardner, ChFC
Chartered Financial Consultant


"Building a deck is NOT as hard as you think! I've watched TV personality
Bob Vila do it many times, and he is a regular 'do-it-yourselfer' just like
you, except that he has knowledge, skill, an unlimited budget and a large
staff of experts." -- Dave Barry

The Chartered Life Underwriter (CLU) and Chartered Financial Consultant
(ChFC), designations owned and exclusively offered by The American College,
signify the highest standards of academic study and professional excellence
in the financial services industry.

Re: OT: x-rays

"Johnny Hageyama" <> wrote in message
news:
> The thread isn't about background levels of radiation but much higher
> levels used in medical procedures, making your anecdote irrelevant.
> Furthermore, few nuclear protestors have been concerned about the
> normal levels of radiation given off by reactors and the fuel
> processing cycle (lower than the levels from coal and natural gas
> combustion) but about potential radiation releases caused by disasters.

Actually, its not irrelevant. I've mentioned this story before, on this very
forum, probably before you started reading it.

If you find the post, there's a link to a schedule one can use to determine
their annual dose, and background radiation from our environment generally
outweighs other sources, INCLUDING that from routine x-rays for medical
purposes (very few exceptions).

As far as disasters, part of the presentation Dr. Donnert gives details how
much radiation one would receive had they been sitting on the fence at the
Three Mile Island plant during it's "event" many years ago.

To put this is perspective, your television set gives you more radiation
than that.

Brent D. Gardner, ChFC
Chartered Financial Consultant


"Building a deck is NOT as hard as you think! I've watched TV personality
Bob Vila do it many times, and he is a regular 'do-it-yourselfer' just like
you, except that he has knowledge, skill, an unlimited budget and a large
staff of experts." -- Dave Barry

The Chartered Life Underwriter (CLU) and Chartered Financial Consultant
(ChFC), designations owned and exclusively offered by The American College,
signify the highest standards of academic study and professional excellence
in the financial services industry.

Re: OT: x-rays

bgardner20 wrote:

> "Johnny Hageyama" <> wrote in message
> news:

> Dr. Herman Donnert was his name, dean of the nuclear engineering
> department.

> He proved in class that one received more daily radiation from
> cohabitation (sleeping in the same bed with someone, every night)
> than from most other sources. Why? Potassium-40, a radioactive
> isotope, that people have in their bodies from eating many popular
> foods (bananas are one of the "hottest" food items because of this).

> It was interesting because he used these facts, and some basic
> logic, to convince a bunch of pink-pantied Kansas University
> students to halt their sit-in protest against the Wolf Creek
> Nuclear Power Plant,

> > The thread isn't about background levels of radiation but much higher
> > levels used in medical procedures, making your anecdote irrelevant.
> > Furthermore, few nuclear protestors have been concerned about the
> > normal levels of radiation given off by reactors and the fuel
> > processing cycle (lower than the levels from coal and natural gas
> > combustion) but about potential radiation releases caused by disasters.
>
> Actually, its not irrelevant. I've mentioned this story before, on this very
> forum, probably before you started reading it.

Background radiation is not relevant to nuclear disasters.

> As far as disasters, part of the presentation Dr. Donnert gives
> details how much radiation one would receive had they been
> sitting on the fence at the Three Mile Island plant during it's
> "event" many years ago.

An "event" trivialized with quotes is not something that causes
hundreds of millions of dollars of damage. The major concern at TMI
was a hydrogen bubble that could have caused a chemical explosion
powerful enough to destroy the containment building and release high
levels of radiation.

> To put this is perspective, your television set gives you more radiation
> than that.

A television gives virtually no radiation. Its high voltage rectifier
is solid state (no hard x-rays), its picture tube made of
strontium-laced glass to block the soft x-rays, and a few feet of air
blocks soft x-rays anyway.

Re: OT: x-rays

"Johnny Hageyama" <> wrote in message
news:
> Background radiation is not relevant to nuclear disasters.

Then why are you bringing it up?

> An "event" trivialized with quotes is not something that causes
> hundreds of millions of dollars of damage. The major concern at TMI
> was a hydrogen bubble that could have caused a chemical explosion
> powerful enough to destroy the containment building and release high
> levels of radiation.

The event was trivial because what people worried about -- radiation from
living nearby -- was grossly exaggerated by tree huggers.

> A television gives virtually no radiation. Its high voltage rectifier
> is solid state (no hard x-rays), its picture tube made of
> strontium-laced glass to block the soft x-rays, and a few feet of air
> blocks soft x-rays anyway.

Like I said, you get more radiation from your TV than you would had you sat
on the fence by Three Mile Island.

In summary: BFD

QED

Brent D. Gardner, ChFC
Chartered Financial Consultant


"Building a deck is NOT as hard as you think! I've watched TV personality
Bob Vila do it many times, and he is a regular 'do-it-yourselfer' just like
you, except that he has knowledge, skill, an unlimited budget and a large
staff of experts." -- Dave Barry

The Chartered Life Underwriter (CLU) and Chartered Financial Consultant
(ChFC), designations owned and exclusively offered by The American College,
signify the highest standards of academic study and professional excellence
in the financial services industry.