Is racism still an issue in the US?

You bet it is.

I couldn't help but notice that 99.9% of the people being shown in the news
clips are black. Some with sad stories, others stealing, others smashing
property so they could steal the contents of a store or building.

The Red Cross is running an ad looking for support for these victims.
Wouldn't you guess that all the people in the ad are white. Telling the same
sad stories.

I find stuff like this very interesting.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"Ed" <> wrote in message
news:
> You bet it is.
>
> I couldn't help but notice that 99.9% of the people being shown in the
> news clips are black. Some with sad stories, others stealing, others
> smashing property so they could steal the contents of a store or building.
>
> The Red Cross is running an ad looking for support for these victims.
> Wouldn't you guess that all the people in the ad are white. Telling the
> same sad stories.
>
> I find stuff like this very interesting.

Sad, but the explanation seems simple. The people you see in the news clips
are the ones who could not get out of town in advance, because they had no
money or no cars, or were in poor health, or had relatives in poor health,
or were so isolated that they didn't even hear the warnings to leave. The
veneer of civilization is thin.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"Don" <> wrote

> "Ed" <> wrote

>> You bet it is.
>>
>> I couldn't help but notice that 99.9% of the people being shown in the
>> news clips are black. Some with sad stories, others stealing, others
>> smashing property so they could steal the contents of a store or
>> building.
>>
>> The Red Cross is running an ad looking for support for these victims.
>> Wouldn't you guess that all the people in the ad are white. Telling the
>> same sad stories.
>>
>> I find stuff like this very interesting.
>
> Sad, but the explanation seems simple. The people you see in the news
> clips are the ones who could not get out of town in advance, because they
> had no money or no cars, or were in poor health, or had relatives in poor
> health, or were so isolated that they didn't even hear the warnings to
> leave. The veneer of civilization is thin.

I saw it differently. I see the Red Cross soliciting whites because they
feel/know that's where the money is. This is where the racism lies, in
their ad.

I'm not attacking anyone here, just pointing what I see. The Red Cross is a
great organization and they are, in my experience, the first on the scene
after a tragic event occurs. They are right behind the firemen, police,
whoever, right there to help. They helped my family 48 years ago and I'll
never forget it.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"Don" <> wrote
> The people you see in the news clips
> are the ones who could not get out of town in advance, because they had no
> money or no cars, or were in poor health, or had relatives in poor health,
> or were so isolated that they didn't even hear the warnings to leave. The
> veneer of civilization is thin.

Short of becoming a truly socialist nation, there is nothing that could have
prevented the choices that have led to the overwhelming hardship being borne
by the poor today on the Gulf Coast.

The truth is, many of the poor of New Orleans had nothing before this, to
begin with. Of those who survive, I predict they will come out ahead. They
will be in parts of the country with less blight and less crime. (New
Orleans was crime-ridden. Now it's a war zone. Better to be in Iraq.)

This nation is now forced into socialist actions. From the ruins of Katrina
(and the idiocy of living in a city so prone to infrastructure failure) will
sprout new economic life: The federal government _will_ pump billions
(probably tens of billions) into the rebuilding of this area, creating jobs
and very possibly a good standard of living for some years.

Yes, this cost lives, but speaking practically, I do not see this sort of
thing being avoided in the future. Understanding the calculus of risk is not
as fun as gambling that one's apartment complex built on the shores of a
hurricane-vulnerable beach will make money for years before "the next big
one" hits.

Paul Krugman's NY Times column today is telling:
---
Before 9/11 the Federal Emergency Management Agency listed the three most
likely catastrophic disasters facing America: a terrorist attack on New
York, a major earthquake in San Francisco and a hurricane strike on New
Orleans. "The New Orleans hurricane scenario," The Houston Chronicle wrote
in December 2001, "may be the deadliest of all." It described a potential
catastrophe very much like the one now happening.

So why were New Orleans and the nation so unprepared? After 9/11, hard
questions were deferred in the name of national unity, then buried under a
thick coat of whitewash. This time, we need accountability.
---

Yeah right. The nation's power grid is antiquated. Any one of New York
City's three drinking etc. water supply pipes could fail at any time, though
efforts to build another are underway. Estimated completion date: Decades
away.

Anyway, interesting factoids, Mr. Krugman. But they do contrast with your
subsequent claim as follows:
---
At a fundamental level, I'd argue, our current leaders just aren't serious
about some of the essential functions of government. They like waging war,
but they don't like providing security, rescuing those in need or spending
on preventive measures. And they never, ever ask for shared sacrifice.
---

It's not about our leaders. It's about the people who put them into office.
_We_ like waging wag but don't like providing security, rescuing those in
need, etc.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"Elle" <> wrote in message
news:Y5%Re.6526$

> It's not about our leaders. It's about the people who put them into
office.
> _We_ like waging wag but don't like providing security, rescuing those in
> need, etc.

I wish I could remember the names of all of those people who told me that it
would be OK to elect a moron President because he would appoint competent
people to do the real work. As in the waging of the war in Iraq, it would
appear that we, instead, got other morons and the result is yet another mess
that is going to get a lot worse before it gets any better as our leaders
thrash about winging their response because they haven't really given the
matter any thought in the past.

A lot of people (mostly black and poor) are going to die because of this
gross incompetence. But these aren't voters we are talking about.


-herb

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"Herb" <> wrote
> "Elle" <> wrote
> > It's not about our leaders. It's about the people who put them into
> office.
> > _We_ like waging wag but don't like providing security, rescuing those
in
> > need, etc.
>
> I wish I could remember the names of all of those people who told me that
it
> would be OK to elect a moron President because he would appoint competent
> people to do the real work. As in the waging of the war in Iraq, it would
> appear that we, instead, got other morons and the result is yet another
mess
> that is going to get a lot worse before it gets any better as our leaders
> thrash about winging their response because they haven't really given the
> matter any thought in the past.
>
> A lot of people (mostly black and poor) are going to die because of this
> gross incompetence. But these aren't voters we are talking about.

Just exchanging opinions here.

First, I think many of New Orleans's poor were voters, but based on my
general reading on voting demographics of the poor, it's probable most of
them were not.

Assuming most of the poor in New Orleans do not vote (because, say, they
couldn't get an education to teach them about the power of voting yada),
should they be absolved of responsibility for this mess? I wouldn't put it
this way. They should be absolved of being poor and so unedudated and so
having the cards stacked against them, with a statistically lower chance of
avoiding a lifetime of poverty and so being killed in a tragedy like this.

Are we as a nation responsible for the New Orleans poor's suffering right
now? Yes, but only insofar as we reject an extremely Socialist form of
government.

I think most people do reject such a government. I bet everyone at this
newsgroup rejects the sort of Socialist government that would be necessary
to prevent the New Orleans' poor from suffering as they are now. The poor
will always suffer more than the middle class and wealthy at times like
this.

Second, would John Kerry have been able to prevent this? I would bet a lot
of money he would be doing no better than President Bush right now.

I don't think it's gross incompetence at all. We have a national culture of
gluttony that promotes gambling. Most of this country _chose_ to take a
gamble. Now it has to pay. But again, on the upside (and it's a big one),
there are victories here: A sewer of a city has been wiped out. All the
crimes that would have happened in the future are less likely to happen
elsewhere, due to the diaspora. Billions of dollars will be spent in the
area, demanding a large labor force, raising the standard of living of many
of the poor.

At a high cost of lives, granted.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"Herb" <> wrote

> I wish I could remember the names of all of those people who told me that
> it
> would be OK to elect a moron President because he would appoint competent
> people to do the real work.

I give you credit for remembering your name, Herbie.

This year I've been to St. Thomas, St. Martin, St. Maarten, Nassau, Miami.
Ft. Lauderdale, and we're headed for Orlando. Have you done anything since
your role as Michaael Jackson and your tour of Italy several years ago with
all the kids?

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"Elle" <> wrote in message
news:g70Se.3920$
> "Herb" <> wrote
> > "Elle" <> wrote
> > > It's not about our leaders. It's about the people who put them into
> > office.
> > > _We_ like waging wag but don't like providing security, rescuing those
> in
> > > need, etc.
> >
> > I wish I could remember the names of all of those people who told me
that
> it
> > would be OK to elect a moron President because he would appoint
competent
> > people to do the real work. As in the waging of the war in Iraq, it
would
> > appear that we, instead, got other morons and the result is yet another
> mess
> > that is going to get a lot worse before it gets any better as our
leaders
> > thrash about winging their response because they haven't really given
the
> > matter any thought in the past.
> >
> > A lot of people (mostly black and poor) are going to die because of this
> > gross incompetence. But these aren't voters we are talking about.
>
> Just exchanging opinions here.
>
> First, I think many of New Orleans's poor were voters, but based on my
> general reading on voting demographics of the poor, it's probable most of
> them were not.
>
> Assuming most of the poor in New Orleans do not vote (because, say, they
> couldn't get an education to teach them about the power of voting yada),
> should they be absolved of responsibility for this mess? I wouldn't put it
> this way. They should be absolved of being poor and so unedudated and so
> having the cards stacked against them, with a statistically lower chance
of
> avoiding a lifetime of poverty and so being killed in a tragedy like this.
>
> Are we as a nation responsible for the New Orleans poor's suffering right
> now? Yes, but only insofar as we reject an extremely Socialist form of
> government.
>
> I think most people do reject such a government. I bet everyone at this
> newsgroup rejects the sort of Socialist government that would be necessary
> to prevent the New Orleans' poor from suffering as they are now. The poor
> will always suffer more than the middle class and wealthy at times like
> this.
>
> Second, would John Kerry have been able to prevent this? I would bet a lot
> of money he would be doing no better than President Bush right now.
>
> I don't think it's gross incompetence at all. We have a national culture
of
> gluttony that promotes gambling. Most of this country _chose_ to take a
> gamble. Now it has to pay. But again, on the upside (and it's a big one),
> there are victories here: A sewer of a city has been wiped out. All the
> crimes that would have happened in the future are less likely to happen
> elsewhere, due to the diaspora. Billions of dollars will be spent in the
> area, demanding a large labor force, raising the standard of living of
many
> of the poor.
>
> At a high cost of lives, granted.

Elle:

I don't know what could be more socialist than building a city below sea
level with federal money.

You misunderstand me. I am not blaming the government for the disaster nor
for the inability of the poor, elderly, crippled and criminal to avoid it.
I am blaming them for slow and inadequate response that will cost many more
lives.

Far be it from me to say what a Presidnet Kerry would do, but I think anyone
of normal intelligence would not have waited two days to cut his vacation
short so he could appear to be dealing with the crisis. I don't think it
would have taken a genius to see that this was going to be a disaster a few
days before it hit. Help should have been on the way by Saturday or Sunday,
not three days after the hurricane.

I can't help but think that if those were middle class white people sitting
on Interstate 10 for days without food, water or sanitation, we would have
found a way to get emergency supplies to them sooner.

-herb

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"PeterL" <> wrote

> Ed wrote:
>> You bet it is.
>>
>> I couldn't help but notice that 99.9% of the people being shown in the
>> news
>> clips are black. Some with sad stories, others stealing, others smashing
>> property so they could steal the contents of a store or building.
>>
>> The Red Cross is running an ad looking for support for these victims.
>> Wouldn't you guess that all the people in the ad are white. Telling the
>> same
>> sad stories.
>>
>> I find stuff like this very interesting.
>
> But not surprising.

Not at all. One of my favorite actors, Nick Cage gave $1 million. My wife
doesn't like him but I think he's a really good actor. I thought he was
really good in Raising Arizona and Con Air.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"Herb" <> wrote

> Far be it from me to say what a Presidnet Kerry would do, but I think
> anyone
> of normal intelligence

How could someone of less than normal intelligence judge others?
That be you, Herbie.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"Ed" <> wrote in message
news:
>
> I saw it differently. I see the Red Cross soliciting whites because they
> feel/know that's where the money is. This is where the racism lies, in
> their ad.
>
What's racist is that the ad had to resort to this because people would not
empathize with black victims as much. Just look at writings all over the
Net calling those desperate people irresponsible, stupid and criminal when,
in reality, they are mostly people with no means to comply with mandatory
evacuation order. (20% with no cars, 40% below poverty, 70% black) What
assholes.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"Herb" <> wrote
snip, something that should be taught by grade 5 ;-)
> I don't know what could be more socialist than building a city below sea
> level with federal money.

lol

That's one way to look at it.

But of course, you surely jest, since the serious money put into New Orleans
benefits big business (oil refineries).

Some crumbs trickle down to the plebes.

> You misunderstand me. I am not blaming the government for the disaster
nor
> for the inability of the poor, elderly, crippled and criminal to avoid it.
> I am blaming them for slow and inadequate response that will cost many
more
> lives.

I am saying that, without radically different choices in how our country and
government functions, this could not have been stopped.

This hurricane could have hit last year; five years ago; in the 1980s. We
all knew it could happen. We did nothing. Now we have to ask why. Was doing
nothing a rational choice? Yes, insofar as we are a nation of gamblers. Many
would say New Orleans had a lot of good years until Katrina hit. Maybe those
good years made Katrina worth it, to a lot of people.

> Far be it from me to say what a Presidnet Kerry would do, but I think
anyone
> of normal intelligence would not have waited two days to cut his vacation
> short so he could appear to be dealing with the crisis. I don't think it
> would have taken a genius to see that this was going to be a disaster a
few
> days before it hit. Help should have been on the way by Saturday or
Sunday,
> not three days after the hurricane.

We disagree.

Serious help was not sent in advance for the same reasons that the levees
weren't re-designed years ago; the nation's electrical grid has become
antiquated, inadequate, and a major threat; New York City's water supply
could fail at any time.

We are a nation of gamblers, ignorant of the reality that infrastructure
actually does not last forever. We squeeze as much as we can out of the
infrastructure what we have, as long as the (short-term) dollars keep
rolling in, and we can have our "fancy" SUVs, Ford F-150s, and other
trappings of the alleged "good life."

> I can't help but think that if those were middle class white people
sitting
> on Interstate 10 for days without food, water or sanitation, we would have
> found a way to get emergency supplies to them sooner.

Your opinion is heard.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"TK Sung" <> wrote
> "Ed" <> wrote

>> I saw it differently. I see the Red Cross soliciting whites because they
>> feel/know that's where the money is. This is where the racism lies, in
>> their ad.
>>
> What's racist is that the ad had to resort to this because people would
> not
> empathize with black victims as much.

That's my point.

> Just look at writings all over the
> Net calling those desperate people irresponsible, stupid and criminal
> when,
> in reality, they are mostly people with no means to comply with mandatory
> evacuation order. (20% with no cars, 40% below poverty, 70% black) What
> assholes.

Being black, poor, and not having a car does not mean it's ok to steal
iPods. The police were allowing the taking of food and water from
supermarkets. It went way beyond that so now you have a bunch of armed
people terrorizing and even raping people. They should be shot.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"Elle" <> wrote

> "Herb" <> wrote

> But of course, you surely jest, since the serious money put into New
> Orleans
> benefits big business (oil refineries).

So they should ignore the refineries?

>> I am blaming them for slow and inadequate response that will cost many
> more
>> lives.

Bush admitted it and said he was disappointed. Would you like him to kiss
your feet and give you a personal 'I'm sorry'?

> I am saying

Nothing.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"TK Sung" <> wrote
> What's racist is that the ad had to resort to this because people would
not
> empathize with black victims as much.

Running an ad which its authors and producers know, from market studies,
would raise a lot less money would be more racist.

I don't know if such studies exist, but I think they might.

So what's a Red Cross administrator to do, with hardly anytime between
running the ad and the death of still more people in New Orleans?

I'd go with the ad that raised the most money.

> Just look at writings all over the
> Net calling those desperate people irresponsible, stupid and criminal
when,
> in reality, they are mostly people with no means to comply with mandatory
> evacuation order. (20% with no cars, 40% below poverty, 70% black) What
> assholes.

I can't begrudge certain observations being made that too many of these
folks have no sense of civility. Thugs control New Orleans now. It's a fact
many of these folks don't know how to function in civilized society.

What's behind this is another matter.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"Elle" <> wrote in message
news:Y5%Re.6526$
>
> This nation is now forced into socialist actions.
>
Gee, I don't know where you get this crap. Taking care of the poor and weak
in need is not socialist. It's called humanist. Instead what we have is
compassionate conservatists calling these people with no means to fend for
themselves irresponsible for taking risk. These aren't exactly
retirement/vacation home owners who want gov to rebuild their vacation home,
you know.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"TK Sung" <> wrote
> "Elle" <> wrote
> > This nation is now forced into socialist actions.
> >
> Gee, I don't know where you get this crap. Taking care of the poor and
weak
> in need is not socialist.

The poor are an inevitable part of a capitalist society. The U.S. capitalist
machine in fact does not take responsible care of them at all.

I can't seriously believe you feel otherwise.

> It's called humanist. Instead what we have is
> compassionate conservatists calling these people with no means to fend for
> themselves irresponsible for taking risk.

In the reputable media, I have not read of one conservative doing this.

I have read a wealth of criticism in the last day or so of the government
and big business rolling the dice that a hurricane this magnitude would not
happen.

It is irresponsible for taking this much risk.

> These aren't exactly
> retirement/vacation home owners who want gov to rebuild their vacation
home,
> you know.

I don't know what you're getting at.

The government is going to provide shelter for the poor of New Orleans, and
I am wagering it will be a lot nicer than what they've had. But this comes
at a great loss. Would a family of five have traded the life of one member
for a nice new house in a much safer neighborhood?

That's a statement of what I think will happen. It's not criticism.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"Elle" <> wrote in message
news:Y5%Re.6526$

> Short of becoming a truly socialist nation, there is nothing that could
> have
> prevented the choices that have led to the overwhelming hardship being
> borne
> by the poor today on the Gulf Coast.

If socialism means taking care of people in need, helping the weak and sick,
building public works like levees that will hold up in emergencies, etc.
then I am all for it. Actually there are many degrees and gradations of
socialism, collectivism, communism, or whatever you want to call it. The USA
indeed could use a bit more of this kind of collectivist philosophy. I just
wonder how another nation with below sea level areas like the Netherlands
would have handled a similar situation. I don't know the extent to which the
Netherlands is semi-socialist like Sweden, Finland, etc. or not, but I
suspect it is. I'll bet the devastation would not have been as bad if the
hurricane had hit Amsterdam and I'll be the response would have been more
sensible. Anyway that nation most likely has relatively fewer poor and needy
people in the first place.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"Don" <> wrote
> "Elle" <> wrote
> > Short of becoming a truly socialist nation, there is nothing that could
> > have
> > prevented the choices that have led to the overwhelming hardship being
> > borne
> > by the poor today on the Gulf Coast.
>
> If socialism means taking care of people in need, helping the weak and
sick,
> building public works like levees that will hold up in emergencies, etc.
> then I am all for it. Actually there are many degrees and gradations of
> socialism, collectivism, communism, or whatever you want to call it. The
USA
> indeed could use a bit more of this kind of collectivist philosophy. I
just
> wonder how another nation with below sea level areas like the Netherlands
> would have handled a similar situation. I don't know the extent to which
the
> Netherlands is semi-socialist like Sweden, Finland, etc. or not, but I
> suspect it is. I'll bet the devastation would not have been as bad if the
> hurricane had hit Amsterdam and I'll be the response would have been more
> sensible. Anyway that nation most likely has relatively fewer poor and
needy
> people in the first place.

Aside: Is your mention of the Netherlands merely coincident to its mention
in a column today in the NY Times?

--NY Times, Op-Ed, discussing engineering fixes to New Orleans--
"Erect huge seagates across the pair of narrow straits that connect the
eastern edge of Lake Pontchartrain, which lies north of the city, to the
gulf. Now, any hurricane that blows in from the south will push a wall of
water through these straits into the huge lake, which in turn will threaten
to overflow into the city. That is what has filled the bowl that is New
Orleans this week. But seagates at the straits can stop the wall of water
from flowing in. The Netherlands has built similar gates to hold back the
turbulent North Sea and they work splendidly."
---

If so, nice.

I agree with your other points.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

I agree with what you say but to make people (?) like Herbie the Turd happy
you would have to move the refineries to Massachusetts. Problem, the Herbies
of the US won't allow that.

California, sorry, not a good choice. Rhode Island, I don't think
so.............



"Don" <> wrote in message
news:mR1Se.160849$
>
> "Elle" <> wrote in message
> news:Y5%Re.6526$
>
>> Short of becoming a truly socialist nation, there is nothing that could
>> have
>> prevented the choices that have led to the overwhelming hardship being
>> borne
>> by the poor today on the Gulf Coast.
>
> If socialism means taking care of people in need, helping the weak and
> sick, building public works like levees that will hold up in emergencies,
> etc. then I am all for it. Actually there are many degrees and gradations
> of socialism, collectivism, communism, or whatever you want to call it.
> The USA indeed could use a bit more of this kind of collectivist
> philosophy. I just wonder how another nation with below sea level areas
> like the Netherlands would have handled a similar situation. I don't know
> the extent to which the Netherlands is semi-socialist like Sweden,
> Finland, etc. or not, but I suspect it is. I'll bet the devastation would
> not have been as bad if the hurricane had hit Amsterdam and I'll be the
> response would have been more sensible. Anyway that nation most likely has
> relatively fewer poor and needy people in the first place.
>

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

I'm pretty sure racism is still an issue. I think some blacks are still
seeking for reparations for what the southern plantation owners did from
about 1750-1865....

I think anyone who misses their homeland that much should return as soon as
possible.

More information here:



Arne
..

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"Elle" <> wrote in message
news:7Y1Se.6606$
> Aside: Is your mention of the Netherlands merely coincident to its mention
> in a column today in the NY Times?
>
> --NY Times, Op-Ed, discussing engineering fixes to New Orleans--
> "Erect huge seagates across the pair of narrow straits that connect the
> eastern edge of Lake Pontchartrain, which lies north of the city, to the
> gulf. Now, any hurricane that blows in from the south will push a wall of
> water through these straits into the huge lake, which in turn will
> threaten
> to overflow into the city. That is what has filled the bowl that is New
> Orleans this week. But seagates at the straits can stop the wall of water
> from flowing in. The Netherlands has built similar gates to hold back the
> turbulent North Sea and they work splendidly."
> ---
>
> If so, nice.
>
> I agree with your other points.

Actually I didn't read the Times. Netherlands came to mind only because it
is below sea level.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

On 2005-09-02, Elle <> wrote:
> "TK Sung" <> wrote
>> It's called humanist. Instead what we have is
>> compassionate conservatists calling these people with no means to fend for
>> themselves irresponsible for taking risk.
>
> In the reputable media, I have not read of one conservative doing this.

The director of homeland security blamed those who didn't leave as
making the problem worse.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"Herb" <> wrote in message
news:yD0Se.2842$
> Far be it from me to say what a Presidnet Kerry would do,
>
President Kerry would've declared it 8/29, gone down to the superdome with a
megaphone, and blamed everything on Bush. :-) But he wouldn't have cut 80%
of funding to prepare New Orleans so that he can pursue his grand delusion.
Instead, he would've socked it on rich people like you, so that poor people
wouldn't have gotten flushed out like that.

Geez, what a national disgrace. It looks like Rwanda over there.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"TK Sung" <> wrote in message
news:LM3Se.1476$
>
> "Herb" <> wrote in message
> news:yD0Se.2842$
> > Far be it from me to say what a Presidnet Kerry would do,
> >
> President Kerry would've declared it 8/29, gone down to the superdome with
a
> megaphone, and blamed everything on Bush. :-) But he wouldn't have cut
80%
> of funding to prepare New Orleans so that he can pursue his grand
delusion.
> Instead, he would've socked it on rich people like you, so that poor
people
> wouldn't have gotten flushed out like that.
>
> Geez, what a national disgrace. It looks like Rwanda over there.


Maybe we can get Pat Robertson and his crew to go down there and take those
people out.

-herb

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 10:24:03 -0400, "Ed" <> wrote:

>You bet it is.
>
>I couldn't help but notice that 99.9% of the people being shown in the news
>clips are black. Some with sad stories, others stealing, others smashing
>property so they could steal the contents of a store or building.
>
>The Red Cross is running an ad looking for support for these victims.
>Wouldn't you guess that all the people in the ad are white. Telling the same
>sad stories.
>
>I find stuff like this very interesting.
>


I found it interesting too for various reasons. Many of them had full
time jobs and yet they were in a clearly disadvantaged socio economic
group.

I now believe that what I have been told is true in that the old,
the sick, the very young, and the very poor whites and blacks
are left behind as well as women.

I next decided a large part of this growing lower class in in part
caused by the three million jobs having left the usa. It reminded me
of the item I heard about air airplane sold by the manufacturer with
"mantenace in China". It used to be that only licensed Federal
Mechanic could work on public carriers.

Last but not least I got a phone call a little while ago about a
third floor neighbor in a very expensive apartment complex in
Far North Dallas (solid gold real estate) throwing trash sacks over
the patio rail. Suspect caught in the act at night before morning
pickup. I could not help but think for a moment a less than
un-christian thought that perhaps they should have left everyone
in NO persih because this is the way some blacks act. Some, note all
blacks act like poor old Southern white trash. When they overcome
that slave rebel attititude and follow the rules like everyone else
then that can usually achieve higher goals. The same "who gives
a crap attitude" is part of the reason so many companies went to
the Asian and Indian Countries.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

Anyone that was harmed between 1750 and 1865 should be compensated by those
that caused the harm. Being black is not reason enough to collect money from
taxpayers since I doubt there are any black slaves or their owners alive
today. Those that would be paying these reparations are innocent having
never owned a slave.


"Arne" <> wrote in message
news:R_2Se.8361$
> I'm pretty sure racism is still an issue. I think some blacks are still
> seeking for reparations for what the southern plantation owners did from
> about 1750-1865....
>
> I think anyone who misses their homeland that much should return as soon
> as possible.
>
> More information here:
>
>
>
> Arne
> .
>
>

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"PeterL" <> wrote

> He was disappointed? No shit. How about not vacationing while the
> storm of the century was bearing down on a major city?

Presidents don't get vacations, you know that. One thing a president can't
do is change the course of a hurricane. The emergency response was a
miserable failure and he said so. I'm no fan of Bush but what more can you
expect from him. He said the problems will be addressed.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

Ed wrote:
> "PeterL" <> wrote
>
>
>>He was disappointed? No shit. How about not vacationing while the
>>storm of the century was bearing down on a major city?
>
>
> Presidents don't get vacations, you know that. One thing a president can't
> do is change the course of a hurricane. The emergency response was a
> miserable failure and he said so. I'm no fan of Bush but what more can you
> expect from him. He said the problems will be addressed.
>
>
The man in charge, the President, is responsible for taking the right
actions at the right time. I think Americans themselves have decided
that it was altogether too little, too late after Katrina. Days after
the event the only visible action seemed to be to send in the troops
with orders to "shoot to kill" some of the survivors.

Finally even Bush noticed that his own citizens were dying of hunger,
thirst and disease in the richest country in the world. It is not enough
for him to mouth platitudes about how terrible it is and cuddle
survivors. Swift, decisive and effective action was called for and he
characteristically failed to provide it.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"David Wilkinson" <> wrote

> The man in charge, the President, is responsible for taking the right
> actions at the right time. I think Americans themselves have decided that
> it was altogether too little, too late after Katrina. Days after the event
> the only visible action seemed to be to send in the troops with orders to
> "shoot to kill" some of the survivors.
>
> Finally even Bush noticed that his own citizens were dying of hunger,
> thirst and disease in the richest country in the world. It is not enough
> for him to mouth platitudes about how terrible it is and cuddle survivors.
> Swift, decisive and effective action was called for and he
> characteristically failed to provide it.

He admitted that the people charged with taking action failed him. What else
can he do besides make the system more effective? He has vowed to do so.
There is no test like a real event, he failed and he said so. The survivors
that are to be shot and killed are a lawless armed bunch that are
terrorizing and raping the others, I see nothing wrong with that
instruction.

As far as being the richest country in the world, the national debt was
$7,945,289,500,245.56 as of Sept 3, 2005 and it's rising as we speak.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

Arne wrote:

> I'm pretty sure racism is still an issue. I think some blacks are still
> seeking for reparations for what the southern plantation owners did from
> about 1750-1865....
>
> I think anyone who misses their homeland that much should return as soon as
> possible.

What's their homeland?

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

Don wrote:

> Sad, but the explanation seems simple. The people you see in the news clips
> are the ones who could not get out of town in advance, because they had no
> money or no cars, or were in poor health, or had relatives in poor health,
> or were so isolated that they didn't even hear the warnings to leave. The
> veneer of civilization is thin.

According to this article:

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/01/AR2 005090102305_pf.html

One family as hesitant to evacuate because their only car didn't have
enough seats, and they feared being arrested for carrying the children
in their laps because they thought that the highway patrol would arrest
them for driving illegally like that.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"larry moe 'n curly" <> wrote in message

> One family as hesitant to evacuate because their only car didn't have
> enough seats, and they feared being arrested for carrying the children
> in their laps because they thought that the highway patrol would arrest
> them for driving illegally like that.
>

And some people are just plain stupid, too.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"TK Sung" <> wrote
> President Kerry would've declared it 8/29, gone down to the superdome with
a
> megaphone, and blamed everything on Bush. :-) But he wouldn't have cut
80%
> of funding to prepare New Orleans so that he can pursue his grand
delusion.
> Instead, he would've socked it on rich people like you, so that poor
people
> wouldn't have gotten flushed out like that.

Dunno about the 80% figure. You might be right, and I know there were
definitely significant cuts. But these trace back to the Clinton years:

--- Today's NY Times ---
A lull in Atlantic hurricane frequency from around 1970 until 1995 probably
contributed to complacency, said Bob Sheets, a former director of the
National Hurricane Center. But more recently, a string of studies found that
after 1995, a natural Atlantic cycle had switched from the pattern that
stifles storms to one that nurtured them. Other studies pointed to an
eventual increase in storm intensity from global warming.

Computer simulations showed ever more clearly how New Orleans could swamp
like a low boat in high seas under the assault from certain hurricanes.

Still, the compromises over flood protection persisted. After a scare from
Hurricane Georges in 1998, Congress authorized the Corps of Engineers to
begin studying bolstering the city's defenses against a Category 5 storm.
But money for that study, and simply for finishing the last components of
the original plan to protect against a Category 3 storm, dribbled in at a
fraction of annual requests.
---

I refuse to lump my disgust over Iraq with this disaster. It will not help
put a Democrat in the Presidency in 2008. Rather, this sort of reasoning
just makes Democrats look pathetic and reckless.

Democrats and GOPers alike (politicians as well as non-politicians) share
the blame equally for the disaster Katrina spawned.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"Elle" <> wrote in message
news:5_rSe.5797$
>
> Dunno about the 80% figure.
>
20% is the number Bush admin granted in response to NO's request earlier
this year. I've also heard 44% cut in the flood control budget of NO since
2001. They were for actual defense, not study.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"TK Sung" <> wrote
> "Elle" <> wrote
> > Dunno about the 80% figure.
> >
> 20% is the number Bush admin granted in response to NO's request earlier
> this year.

Pfft. How is this supposed to have more credibility than your first
statement?

You might be right, but this deterioration had been going on for decades. No
one with any power gave a damn all that time. Bush just got unlucky.

> I've also heard 44% cut in the flood control budget of NO since
> 2001. They were for actual defense, not study.

Now some facts:

---NY Times---
"Gazing at Breached Levees, Critics See Years of Missed Opportunities"
Excerpt:
[I]n 1992, [a certain scientist] said, when Hurricane Andrew, just behind
Hurricane Camille on the all-time intensity list, headed to the Gulf Coast,
and the National Hurricane Center advised New Orleans to start evacuations,
he said of the city officials: "Essentially they did nothing. The
conventions and other business went on."

Dr. Sheets said a 20-year lull in Atlantic storm activity from 1970 until
the early 90's could have contributed to communities' sense of ease. "The
longer you go without something like this, the less you think it will
happen," he said. "The risk was there," he said. "And now, obviously, it has
come to pass to a great degree."

Mr. Naomi noted that since 2000, Congress had financed the corps request for
a study to increase New Orleans's protections for the strongest hurricanes.
But he acknowledged that the sum was a fraction of the request and that the
study would take years to complete.

"To effectuate what would have made any difference in this storm," he said,
such a study would have had to have started 20 or 25 years ago.
---


wanted=2

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

TK Sung wrote:
> "Elle" <> wrote in message
> news:5_rSe.5797$
>
>>Dunno about the 80% figure.
>>
>
> 20% is the number Bush admin granted in response to NO's request earlier
> this year. I've also heard 44% cut in the flood control budget of NO since
> 2001. They were for actual defense, not study.
>
>
And I thought America's reputation could not get any lower after Iraq.
How wrong can you be!

After the Tsunami damage in Indonesia and surrounding countries there
was a mass surge of collections in the UK of money to help the victims,
even though we had no historic connection with any of these countries.
You could not go anywhere without volunteers shaking collecting buckets
at you and we all contributed and were glad to do so. A lot of shops had
collections beside the tills.

In the New Orleans case there is no sign of any collections at all, just
total disgust at how badly the richest nation on Earth treats its
poorest citizens.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"David Wilkinson" <> wrote in message
news:dfflgh$rr8$
> TK Sung wrote:
> > "Elle" <> wrote in message
> > news:5_rSe.5797$
> >
> >>Dunno about the 80% figure.
> >>
> >
> > 20% is the number Bush admin granted in response to NO's request earlier
> > this year. I've also heard 44% cut in the flood control budget of NO
since
> > 2001. They were for actual defense, not study.
> >
> >
> And I thought America's reputation could not get any lower after Iraq.
> How wrong can you be!

Pretty darn wrong, in my experience. Weren't you claiming "shoot to kill"
orders, yesterday?

>
> After the Tsunami damage in Indonesia and surrounding countries there
> was a mass surge of collections in the UK of money to help the victims,
> even though we had no historic connection with any of these countries.
> You could not go anywhere without volunteers shaking collecting buckets
> at you and we all contributed and were glad to do so. A lot of shops had
> collections beside the tills.

Yeah, you had no historic connections except the part where you enslaved
several of the affected contries for a century or two (India, Sri Lanka,
Maylaysia).

>
> In the New Orleans case there is no sign of any collections at all, just
> total disgust at how badly the richest nation on Earth treats its
> poorest citizens.

Not like the lavish aid heaped on the Irish during the potato famine. I
don't think everyone in the UK is as stridently ungrateful as you seem to
be. You're on a very long list of countries said to have offered
assistance.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"Elle" <> wrote in message
news:cNISe.5097$
>
> Pfft. How is this supposed to have more credibility than your first
> statement?
>
Alright, dammit, then read this:


"In an era of tax cuts for the wealthy, Bush consistently slashed the Army
Corps of Engineers' funding requests to improve the levees holding back Lake
Pontchartrain. This year, he asked for $3.9 million, $23 million less than
the Corps requested. In the end, Bush reluctantly agreed to $5.7 million,
delaying seven contracts, including one to enlarge the New Orleans levees."

> Bush just got unlucky.
>
Read the rest of the article and see if you still feel the same.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"David Wilkinson" <> wrote in message
news:dfflgh$rr8$
>
> In the New Orleans case there is no sign of any collections at all,
>
Don't worry. We got $25k from Sri Lanka. Brought tears to my eyes...

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"TK Sung" <> wrote
> "Elle" <> wrote
> > Pfft. How is this supposed to have more credibility than your first
> > statement?
> >
> Alright, dammit, then read this:
>
>
> "In an era of tax cuts for the wealthy, Bush consistently slashed the Army
> Corps of Engineers' funding requests to improve the levees holding back
Lake
> Pontchartrain. This year, he asked for $3.9 million, $23 million less than
> the Corps requested. In the end, Bush reluctantly agreed to $5.7 million,
> delaying seven contracts, including one to enlarge the New Orleans
levees."

Now we're talking. Just pull up those Clinton numbers, and we will have a
serious discussion going.

> > Bush just got unlucky.
> >
> Read the rest of the article and see if you still feel the same.

Read all the articles I've cited and see if you still feel the same. :-)

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"Elle" <> wrote in message
news:p5KSe.444$
>
> Just pull up those Clinton numbers,
>
What Clinton numbers?

>
> Read all the articles I've cited and see if you still feel the same. :-)
>
What article? NYT article does not say anything about Clinton numbers.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

One factor has gone blissfully unnoticed. The insurance industry has a big
hand in what a pain in the ass this is all turning out to be.

Q: Why do 40% of people living in a flood plain not have flood insurance?
A: It isn't made affordable to them, the people have nowhere else to go,
the poor aren't organized and they don't vote. The insurance industry
effectively redlined the city.

One of the industry's main assets is the ability to pass laws that force
citizens that don't need insrance to buy it. Citizens that need it don't
get it. At that level, the insurance industry's profits are guaranteed.
Talk about price gouging!

Hell, If I just avoided a major claim, and managed to stick it to tax payers
(who, did I already mention this, are already forced to buy needless flood
insurance) through FEMA, I just might decide to run a commercial on CNBC
with MC Hammer Singing "Can't Touch This."

Insurance industry execs deserve a nice slap on the back and shareholders
should rejoice. Initial damage estimates at $100 billion. A few billion
could have solved this years ago.

"Ed" <> wrote in message
news:
> You bet it is.
>
> I couldn't help but notice that 99.9% of the people being shown in the
> news clips are black. Some with sad stories, others stealing, others
> smashing property so they could steal the contents of a store or building.
>
> The Red Cross is running an ad looking for support for these victims.
> Wouldn't you guess that all the people in the ad are white. Telling the
> same sad stories.
>
> I find stuff like this very interesting.
>

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

Flood insurance is expensive because floods are much more repetitive
occurrences than other damage, like wind, fire, etc.

If you live in a flood prone area, you will get flooded, period...... and
insurance is based on 'experience'.

So, just like young drivers pay more for insurance, people who live in flood
plains will pay more.....

I for one, would like to see insurance cos. pull out entirely in places like
beach front property which gets destroyed over and over.... let nature do
what nature does best.... and stay out of the way.

Arne
..
>
> Q: Why do 40% of people living in a flood plain not have flood insurance?
> A: It isn't made affordable to them, the people have nowhere else to go,
> the poor aren't organized and they don't vote.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

How much would you like to bet that if the insurance industry had greater
exposure to that area the levees would have been fortified years ago?
Problem solved. This $100 billion bill should not be a general tax payer
liability. We (Americans) are all in this together. On many levels, I
don't think it is feasible to essentially leave the poor in New Orleans to,
for lack of a better descriptor, "rot economically," which is essentially
what is happening.

"Arne" <> wrote in message
news:XRATe.9741$
> Flood insurance is expensive because floods are much more repetitive
> occurrences than other damage, like wind, fire, etc.
>
> If you live in a flood prone area, you will get flooded, period...... and
> insurance is based on 'experience'.
>
> So, just like young drivers pay more for insurance, people who live in
> flood plains will pay more.....
>
> I for one, would like to see insurance cos. pull out entirely in places
> like beach front property which gets destroyed over and over.... let
> nature do what nature does best.... and stay out of the way.
>
> Arne
> .
>>
>> Q: Why do 40% of people living in a flood plain not have flood
>> insurance?
>> A: It isn't made affordable to them, the people have nowhere else to go,
>> the poor aren't organized and they don't vote.
>
>

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

Furthermore, if insurance companies are able to get laws passed that affect
the public, then they have a public obligation.

"funneemunnee" <> wrote in message
news:QGATe.16699$
> One factor has gone blissfully unnoticed. The insurance industry has a
> big hand in what a pain in the ass this is all turning out to be.
>
> Q: Why do 40% of people living in a flood plain not have flood insurance?
> A: It isn't made affordable to them, the people have nowhere else to go,
> the poor aren't organized and they don't vote. The insurance industry
> effectively redlined the city.
>
> One of the industry's main assets is the ability to pass laws that force
> citizens that don't need insrance to buy it. Citizens that need it don't
> get it. At that level, the insurance industry's profits are guaranteed.
> Talk about price gouging!
>
> Hell, If I just avoided a major claim, and managed to stick it to tax
> payers (who, did I already mention this, are already forced to buy
> needless flood insurance) through FEMA, I just might decide to run a
> commercial on CNBC with MC Hammer Singing "Can't Touch This."
>
> Insurance industry execs deserve a nice slap on the back and shareholders
> should rejoice. Initial damage estimates at $100 billion. A few billion
> could have solved this years ago.
>
> "Ed" <> wrote in message
> news:
>> You bet it is.
>>
>> I couldn't help but notice that 99.9% of the people being shown in the
>> news clips are black. Some with sad stories, others stealing, others
>> smashing property so they could steal the contents of a store or
>> building.
>>
>> The Red Cross is running an ad looking for support for these victims.
>> Wouldn't you guess that all the people in the ad are white. Telling the
>> same sad stories.
>>
>> I find stuff like this very interesting.
>>
>
>

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

I know we have several members who live in/near N.O. .... it is a proverty
stricken city with all the attendant problems.

Ironically, the flood control projects have killed off a lot of marsh land
that would have afforded N.O. the protection it needed from storm surge.
Barrier islands are disappearing, all because 'we tried to fix it'. Now they
have 20 miles of marsh land, whereas before, they had 50. Experts think that
would have saved the city.

They also say that the amount needed to fix n/o again would have been enough
to restore the marshes.... It is a mess.. we did it.

Arne
..
..
"funneemunnee" <> wrote in message
news:uiCTe.13$
> How much would you like to bet that if the insurance industry had greater
> exposure to that area the levees would have been fortified years ago?
> Problem solved. This $100 billion bill should not be a general tax payer
> liability. We (Americans) are all in this together. On many levels, I
> don't think it is feasible to essentially leave the poor in New Orleans
> to, for lack of a better descriptor, "rot economically," which is
> essentially what is happening.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

What is the main purpose of a newspaper? It is the same purpose of an
insurance company. To make money for its owners/stockholders.

Any obligation only comes when it fits the mold.

Arne
..
..
"funneemunnee" <> wrote in message
news:BqCTe.16$
> Furthermore, if insurance companies are able to get laws passed that
> affect the public, then they have a public obligation.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"funneemunnee" <> wrote

> This $100 billion bill should not be a general tax payer liability. We
> (Americans) are all in this together.

Aren't those two sentences contradictory? Taxpayers, insurance holders,
what's the difference?

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"funneemunnee" <> wrote

> Q: Why do 40% of people living in a flood plain not have flood insurance?
> A: It isn't made affordable to them,

agree.

> the poor aren't organized and they don't vote.

disagree, I think they do vote.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

Well...one of everyone's purposes is to make more money. The question is
whether or not it is acceptable to push your liabilities on others simply
because they are ignorant. What do you think?

"Arne" <> wrote in message
news:kWCTe.9745$
> What is the main purpose of a newspaper? It is the same purpose of an
> insurance company. To make money for its owners/stockholders.
>
> Any obligation only comes when it fits the mold.
>
> Arne
> .
> .
> "funneemunnee" <> wrote in message
> news:BqCTe.16$
>> Furthermore, if insurance companies are able to get laws passed that
>> affect the public, then they have a public obligation.
>
>

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

It points to an underlying asymetrical distribution of power, etc...
nobody's perfect. ha.

"Ed" <> wrote in message
news:
>
> "funneemunnee" <> wrote
>
>> This $100 billion bill should not be a general tax payer liability. We
>> (Americans) are all in this together.
>
> Aren't those two sentences contradictory? Taxpayers, insurance holders,
> what's the difference?
>

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

Also, one difference between tax payers and insurance holders is that
conscious tax payers would probably not allow a liability to compound until
it reaches $100 billion. Subordinated insurance policy holders essentially
allow the compounding inherent to the liability accrue to the insurance
company that exists separately from the tax payer and insurnace policy
holder.

"Ed" <> wrote in message
news:
>
> "funneemunnee" <> wrote
>
>> This $100 billion bill should not be a general tax payer liability. We
>> (Americans) are all in this together.
>
> Aren't those two sentences contradictory? Taxpayers, insurance holders,
> what's the difference?
>

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

Also, one difference between tax payers and insurance holders is that
conscious tax payers would probably not allow a liability to compound until
it reaches $100 billion. Subordinated insurance policy holders essentially
allow the compounding inherent to the liability TO accrue to the insurance
company that exists separately from the tax payer and insurnace policy
holder.



"funneemunnee" <> wrote in message
news:FUDTe.93$
> Also, one difference between tax payers and insurance holders is that
> conscious tax payers would probably not allow a liability to compound
> until it reaches $100 billion. Subordinated insurance policy holders
> essentially allow the compounding inherent to the liability accrue to the
> insurance company that exists separately from the tax payer and insurnace
> policy holder.
>
> "Ed" <> wrote in message
> news:
>>
>> "funneemunnee" <> wrote
>>
>>> This $100 billion bill should not be a general tax payer liability. We
>>> (Americans) are all in this together.
>>
>> Aren't those two sentences contradictory? Taxpayers, insurance holders,
>> what's the difference?
>>
>
>

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

There was a column on this the other day in the NY Times.

The columnist noted how Benjamin Franklin himself (that long ago!) urged
letting private industry, specifically private insurers, in essence
determine where people lived, via setting rates actually consistent with the
locale's risk involved.

Excerpt:
---
Here's the bargain I'd offer New Orleans: the feds will spend the billions
for your new levees, but then you're on your own. You and others along the
coast have to buy flood insurance the same way we all buy fire insurance -
from private companies that have more at stake than do Washington
bureaucrats.

Private flood insurance has come to seem quaint in America, but in Britain
it's the norm. If Americans paid premiums for living in risky areas, they'd
think twice about building oceanfront villas.
---



"funneemunnee" <> wrote
> One factor has gone blissfully unnoticed. The insurance industry has a
big
> hand in what a pain in the ass this is all turning out to be.
>
> Q: Why do 40% of people living in a flood plain not have flood insurance?
> A: It isn't made affordable to them, the people have nowhere else to go,
> the poor aren't organized and they don't vote. The insurance industry
> effectively redlined the city.
>
> One of the industry's main assets is the ability to pass laws that force
> citizens that don't need insrance to buy it. Citizens that need it don't
> get it. At that level, the insurance industry's profits are guaranteed.
> Talk about price gouging!
>
> Hell, If I just avoided a major claim, and managed to stick it to tax
payers
> (who, did I already mention this, are already forced to buy needless flood
> insurance) through FEMA, I just might decide to run a commercial on CNBC
> with MC Hammer Singing "Can't Touch This."
>
> Insurance industry execs deserve a nice slap on the back and shareholders
> should rejoice. Initial damage estimates at $100 billion. A few billion
> could have solved this years ago.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

Hey Elle:

You'll be hard pressed to find many that are more for free markets than I
am. Free markets tend to find their natural balance over the long run,
which is just fine with me. Nonetheless, since the insurance industry is
one of the most heavily regulated, at the State level I believe, one can
argue that it is no longer a free market. There is not a chance in hades
that the vast majority of folks in New Orleans will ever reach the level of
sophistication that places them on equal footing with the insurance
companies in their, and probably their childrens', lifetimes.

In a sense, it boils down to public vs. private choice. Why should the
public subsidize an industry once it has, as in this case, lost its utility
to the public?

"Elle" <> wrote in message
news:v6FTe.2280$
> There was a column on this the other day in the NY Times.
>
> The columnist noted how Benjamin Franklin himself (that long ago!) urged
> letting private industry, specifically private insurers, in essence
> determine where people lived, via setting rates actually consistent with
> the
> locale's risk involved.
>
> Excerpt:
> ---
> Here's the bargain I'd offer New Orleans: the feds will spend the billions
> for your new levees, but then you're on your own. You and others along the
> coast have to buy flood insurance the same way we all buy fire insurance -
> from private companies that have more at stake than do Washington
> bureaucrats.
>
> Private flood insurance has come to seem quaint in America, but in Britain
> it's the norm. If Americans paid premiums for living in risky areas,
> they'd
> think twice about building oceanfront villas.
> ---
>
>
>
> "funneemunnee" <> wrote
>> One factor has gone blissfully unnoticed. The insurance industry has a
> big
>> hand in what a pain in the ass this is all turning out to be.
>>
>> Q: Why do 40% of people living in a flood plain not have flood
>> insurance?
>> A: It isn't made affordable to them, the people have nowhere else to go,
>> the poor aren't organized and they don't vote. The insurance industry
>> effectively redlined the city.
>>
>> One of the industry's main assets is the ability to pass laws that force
>> citizens that don't need insrance to buy it. Citizens that need it don't
>> get it. At that level, the insurance industry's profits are guaranteed.
>> Talk about price gouging!
>>
>> Hell, If I just avoided a major claim, and managed to stick it to tax
> payers
>> (who, did I already mention this, are already forced to buy needless
>> flood
>> insurance) through FEMA, I just might decide to run a commercial on CNBC
>> with MC Hammer Singing "Can't Touch This."
>>
>> Insurance industry execs deserve a nice slap on the back and shareholders
>> should rejoice. Initial damage estimates at $100 billion. A few billion
>> could have solved this years ago.
>
>

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

Another thought...Since various people are forced by law to purchase
insurance, and others are not, one might say that it is no longer a free
market as suggested.

"Elle" <> wrote in message
news:v6FTe.2280$
> There was a column on this the other day in the NY Times.
>
> The columnist noted how Benjamin Franklin himself (that long ago!) urged
> letting private industry, specifically private insurers, in essence
> determine where people lived, via setting rates actually consistent with
> the
> locale's risk involved.
>
> Excerpt:
> ---
> Here's the bargain I'd offer New Orleans: the feds will spend the billions
> for your new levees, but then you're on your own. You and others along the
> coast have to buy flood insurance the same way we all buy fire insurance -
> from private companies that have more at stake than do Washington
> bureaucrats.
>
> Private flood insurance has come to seem quaint in America, but in Britain
> it's the norm. If Americans paid premiums for living in risky areas,
> they'd
> think twice about building oceanfront villas.
> ---
>
>
>
> "funneemunnee" <> wrote
>> One factor has gone blissfully unnoticed. The insurance industry has a
> big
>> hand in what a pain in the ass this is all turning out to be.
>>
>> Q: Why do 40% of people living in a flood plain not have flood
>> insurance?
>> A: It isn't made affordable to them, the people have nowhere else to go,
>> the poor aren't organized and they don't vote. The insurance industry
>> effectively redlined the city.
>>
>> One of the industry's main assets is the ability to pass laws that force
>> citizens that don't need insrance to buy it. Citizens that need it don't
>> get it. At that level, the insurance industry's profits are guaranteed.
>> Talk about price gouging!
>>
>> Hell, If I just avoided a major claim, and managed to stick it to tax
> payers
>> (who, did I already mention this, are already forced to buy needless
>> flood
>> insurance) through FEMA, I just might decide to run a commercial on CNBC
>> with MC Hammer Singing "Can't Touch This."
>>
>> Insurance industry execs deserve a nice slap on the back and shareholders
>> should rejoice. Initial damage estimates at $100 billion. A few billion
>> could have solved this years ago.
>
>

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"funneemunnee" <> wrote
> Hey Elle:
>
> You'll be hard pressed to find many that are more for free markets than I
> am. Free markets tend to find their natural balance over the long run,
> which is just fine with me. Nonetheless, since the insurance industry is
> one of the most heavily regulated, at the State level I believe, one can
> argue that it is no longer a free market.

Hello. I was agreeing with your points, or trying to, for the greater part.
I think the column I cited does, too.

I was trying to point out that your points are in fact getting attention
from the media and I'm sure will continue to be discussed. I am seeing
letters to the editor raising some of your points, too.

I think I mentioned on Usenet recently how my main (and pretty well known,
and I would argue rather scrupulous) insurer will not ensure homes in
Florida anymore. This certainly was a deterrent for me a few years ago when
I was thinking of buying property there. But of course other insurance
companies are doing as you attest, ultimately feeding off the government
trough.

> There is not a chance in hades
> that the vast majority of folks in New Orleans will ever reach the level
of
> sophistication that places them on equal footing with the insurance
> companies in their, and probably their childrens', lifetimes.
>
> In a sense, it boils down to public vs. private choice. Why should the
> public subsidize an industry once it has, as in this case, lost its
utility
> to the public?

Because those who have stock in insurance companies like the returns? (As I
think you mentioned.) And these folks tend to have money and so power and
political clout?

I think the best stock I've ever owned is in a certain insurance company.
(Albeit I believe one of the worst I owned was also in insurance.)

Lately I just don't care too much anymore and so go for the profits and opt
out of pooling myself with people who are making poor and expensive choices
about lifestyle (I don't mean the poor as much as I mean the working poor,
middle, and upper classes). This is mostly in the belief that the school of
hard knocks is the only way people willl learn. I still try to vote such
that, um, my investments will be hurt, but the impoverished masses will
become more educated and better health-insured, though.

I digress...

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"funneemunnee" <> wrote in message
news:_nFTe.531$
> Another thought...Since various people are forced by law to purchase
> insurance, and others are not, one might say that it is no longer a free
> market as suggested.

As far as this state goes, only automobile insurance is mandatory and this
is not the case in every state. I think larger companies are also required
to offer some type of health plan to their employees.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

Ha...You busted me making a wild assumption about the link you provided.
This time I actually followed it and read it. Thanks.

"Elle" <> wrote in message
news:rvFTe.7425$
> "funneemunnee" <> wrote
>> Hey Elle:
>>
>> You'll be hard pressed to find many that are more for free markets than I
>> am. Free markets tend to find their natural balance over the long run,
>> which is just fine with me. Nonetheless, since the insurance industry is
>> one of the most heavily regulated, at the State level I believe, one can
>> argue that it is no longer a free market.
>
> Hello. I was agreeing with your points, or trying to, for the greater
> part.
> I think the column I cited does, too.
>
> I was trying to point out that your points are in fact getting attention
> from the media and I'm sure will continue to be discussed. I am seeing
> letters to the editor raising some of your points, too.
>
> I think I mentioned on Usenet recently how my main (and pretty well known,
> and I would argue rather scrupulous) insurer will not ensure homes in
> Florida anymore. This certainly was a deterrent for me a few years ago
> when
> I was thinking of buying property there. But of course other insurance
> companies are doing as you attest, ultimately feeding off the government
> trough.
>
>> There is not a chance in hades
>> that the vast majority of folks in New Orleans will ever reach the level
> of
>> sophistication that places them on equal footing with the insurance
>> companies in their, and probably their childrens', lifetimes.
>>
>> In a sense, it boils down to public vs. private choice. Why should the
>> public subsidize an industry once it has, as in this case, lost its
> utility
>> to the public?
>
> Because those who have stock in insurance companies like the returns? (As
> I
> think you mentioned.) And these folks tend to have money and so power and
> political clout?
>
> I think the best stock I've ever owned is in a certain insurance company.
> (Albeit I believe one of the worst I owned was also in insurance.)
>
> Lately I just don't care too much anymore and so go for the profits and
> opt
> out of pooling myself with people who are making poor and expensive
> choices
> about lifestyle (I don't mean the poor as much as I mean the working poor,
> middle, and upper classes). This is mostly in the belief that the school
> of
> hard knocks is the only way people willl learn. I still try to vote such
> that, um, my investments will be hurt, but the impoverished masses will
> become more educated and better health-insured, though.
>
> I digress...
>
>

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"PeterL" <> wrote

> Ed wrote:
>> "funneemunnee" <> wrote in message
>> news:_nFTe.531$
>> > Another thought...Since various people are forced by law to purchase
>> > insurance, and others are not, one might say that it is no longer a
>> > free
>> > market as suggested.
>>
>> As far as this state goes, only automobile insurance is mandatory and
>> this
>> is not the case in every state. I think larger companies are also
>> required
>> to offer some type of health plan to their employees.
>
> Some areas near my house flood insurance is required. I think in some
> areas of California earthquake insurance is required. But these are
> all for home insurance. So if you don't own a house you won't have any
> insurance of this kind.

If you have a mortgage you need insurance. It's usually required by the
lender.
If you own your house you may not need insurance.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"PeterL" <> wrote

>> If you have a mortgage you need insurance. It's usually required by the
>> lender.
>
> Only if your down payment is below a certain percentage. It's a form
> of life insurance, has nothing to do with the structure or contents.

It has everything to do with the structure. Two types are generally required
by lenders here, mortgage insurance and homeowners insurance.

>> If you own your house you may not need insurance.
>
> Sure you do, esp. since the house is most people's biggest holding.

It's not required but probably wise, it depends on your circumstances I
guess.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

In article <>,
"Ed" <> wrote:

> "Don" <> wrote
>
> > "Ed" <> wrote
>
> >> You bet it is.
> >>
> >> I couldn't help but notice that 99.9% of the people being shown in the
> >> news clips are black. Some with sad stories, others stealing, others
> >> smashing property so they could steal the contents of a store or
> >> building.
> >>
> >> The Red Cross is running an ad looking for support for these victims.
> >> Wouldn't you guess that all the people in the ad are white. Telling the
> >> same sad stories.
> >>
> >> I find stuff like this very interesting.
> >
> > Sad, but the explanation seems simple. The people you see in the news
> > clips are the ones who could not get out of town in advance, because they
> > had no money or no cars, or were in poor health, or had relatives in poor
> > health, or were so isolated that they didn't even hear the warnings to
> > leave. The veneer of civilization is thin.
>
> I saw it differently. I see the Red Cross soliciting whites because they
> feel/know that's where the money is. This is where the racism lies, in
> their ad.
>
> I'm not attacking anyone here, just pointing what I see. The Red Cross is a
> great organization and they are, in my experience, the first on the scene
> after a tragic event occurs. They are right behind the firemen, police,
> whoever, right there to help. They helped my family 48 years ago and I'll
> never forget it.

actually, the first on the scene(in a meaningful way- food, shelter,
etc.) was the Salvation Army.

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

In article <zU%Re.170804$>,
"Herb" <> wrote:

> A lot of people (mostly black and poor) are going to die because of this
> gross incompetence. But these aren't voters we are talking about.

so after years of hiding the ghetto(no tour buses went thru there) NO
has the place all over the news, street by street. many NO residents
might not have know the neighborhood was there or the pop. density.
typically, these are note voters, not registered. also a neighborhood
like that is famous for telling the census, "nobody live there, fuck
off."
well, it's all flushed out now, interesting to see how it is redeveloped.
I can see the shiny new townhouses now...........

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

"mac" <> wrote in message
news:
> In article <zU%Re.170804$>,
> "Herb" <> wrote:
>
> > A lot of people (mostly black and poor) are going to die because of this
> > gross incompetence. But these aren't voters we are talking about.
>
> so after years of hiding the ghetto(no tour buses went thru there) NO
> has the place all over the news, street by street. many NO residents
> might not have know the neighborhood was there or the pop. density.
> typically, these are note voters, not registered. also a neighborhood
> like that is famous for telling the census, "nobody live there, fuck
> off."
> well, it's all flushed out now, interesting to see how it is redeveloped.
> I can see the shiny new townhouses now...........

I agree. The sad fact is that there was racism before the storm and there
will be racism after the storm. All that happened was that water flooded
into the crevices where we hid those people and flushed them out into the
light of day where we had to look at them and see the bleak lives that they
live.

I'm offended that people are only offended now, at that.

-herb

Re: Is racism still an issue in the US?

There is racism in all countries, we are not unique. Look at Iraq and the 3
factions, or races/ethnic groups, that want to kill each other off. I
suppose there are exceptions, perhaps Japan, but the exceptions are few. We
talk about it like our racism is special, it is not. It is human nature to
think "I am better than you". Don't forget, there is a form of financial
'better than you' racism as well rampant in the USA. The news over the years
has been full of stories in different countries where things boil over and
former neighbors start killing each other because of ethnicity....

Also, I have worked with Blacks who do not want to live with whites. It is
not that they can not afford it, but why would a black family want to live
in a neighborhood that is otherwise white? They did want a nicer house is a
better neighborhood, but just not a white neighborhood.

So, you all can continue to talk about it, but you won't solve a thing, and
it won't go away..... if you come back in 100 years, it will still be
here..... but of course, you won't.

Arne
..