hg mimf2006

sold IGN at open, $34.63....

buy uopix with all proceeds tonight..

Happy Guy
..
..

Re: hg mimf2006

Arne

Are there no fees, commissions, spreads or loads of any kind for iShares? If
not, then how does whoever runs them (Goldman Sachs in this case and not
known for philanthropy!) make any money out of them?

Obviously I have never bought any iShares so I am asking for info rather
than challenging :-)

David

"happy-guy" <> wrote in message
news:z9uxf.54392$
> sold IGN at open, $34.63....
>
> buy uopix with all proceeds tonight..
>
> Happy Guy
> .
> .
>

Re: hg mimf2006

David, the commission is $7 in and $7 out. There is also a small SEC fee
when you sell, around $0.25 or so.
The spread shouldn't be an issue if his order was filled at $34.52, but it
usually runs about $0.05 between bid and ask.

"David Wilkinson" <> wrote in message
news:dq5v58$u3r$
> Arne
>
> Are there no fees, commissions, spreads or loads of any kind for iShares?
> If not, then how does whoever runs them (Goldman Sachs in this case and
> not known for philanthropy!) make any money out of them?
>
> Obviously I have never bought any iShares so I am asking for info rather
> than challenging :-)
>
> David
>
> "happy-guy" <> wrote in message
> news:z9uxf.54392$
>> sold IGN at open, $34.63....
>>
>> buy uopix with all proceeds tonight..
>>
>> Happy Guy
>> .
>> .
>>
>
>

Re: hg mimf2006

I included the $7.00 commission on the buy and on the sell.... The spread
can be between .01 and .15, right now it is .04...., so Ed is right on.

Will be going to uopix with all cash tonight, but think I already said
that...

--

Happy Guy
..
..
"Ed" <> wrote in message
news:
> David, the commission is $7 in and $7 out. There is also a small SEC fee
> when you sell, around $0.25 or so.
> The spread shouldn't be an issue if his order was filled at $34.52, but it
> usually runs about $0.05 between bid and ask.
>
> "David Wilkinson" <> wrote in message
> news:dq5v58$u3r$
>> Arne
>>
>> Are there no fees, commissions, spreads or loads of any kind for iShares?
>> If not, then how does whoever runs them (Goldman Sachs in this case and
>> not known for philanthropy!) make any money out of them?
>>
>> Obviously I have never bought any iShares so I am asking for info rather
>> than challenging :-)
>>
>> David
>>
>> "happy-guy" <> wrote in message
>> news:z9uxf.54392$
>>> sold IGN at open, $34.63....
>>>
>>> buy uopix with all proceeds tonight..
>>>
>>> Happy Guy
>>> .
>>> .
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: hg mimf2006

oh, and uopix will be bought at profunds... no commission when
buying/selling direct.

Happy Guy
..
..
"happy-guy" <> wrote in message
news:Y1wxf.54396$
>I included the $7.00 commission on the buy and on the sell.... The spread
>can be between .01 and .15, right now it is .04...., so Ed is right on.
>
> Will be going to uopix with all cash tonight, but think I already said
> that...
>
> --
>
> Happy Guy

Re: hg mimf2006

The rules allow instant switching
to a different broker?

happy-guy wrote:
> oh, and uopix will be bought at profunds... no commission when
> buying/selling direct.
>
> Happy Guy

Re: hg mimf2006

Hmmm.. Could be a good point. Even if you are signed on with two brokers,
Arne, how long does it take to realise the money after the sale and move it
to the other broker? Can you do it in time for a sell and buy on the same
day?

David
"Mark Matzen" <> wrote in message
news:
> The rules allow instant switching
> to a different broker?
>
> happy-guy wrote:
>> oh, and uopix will be bought at profunds... no commission when
>> buying/selling direct.
>>
>> Happy Guy
>

Re: hg mimf2006

"David Wilkinson" <> wrote

> Hmmm.. Could be a good point. Even if you are signed on with two brokers,
> Arne, how long does it take to realise the money after the sale and move
> it to the other broker? Can you do it in time for a sell and buy on the
> same day?

3 days.

Re: hg mimf2006

I don't know why my "T+3" reply didn't hook up with this thread but anyway,
look for it below.



"David Wilkinson" <> wrote in message
news:dq6ap3$o85$
> Hmmm.. Could be a good point. Even if you are signed on with two brokers,
> Arne, how long does it take to realise the money after the sale and move
> it to the other broker? Can you do it in time for a sell and buy on the
> same day?
>
> David
> "Mark Matzen" <> wrote in message
> news:
>> The rules allow instant switching
>> to a different broker?
>>
>> happy-guy wrote:
>>> oh, and uopix will be bought at profunds... no commission when
>>> buying/selling direct.
>>>
>>> Happy Guy
>>
>
>

Re: hg mimf2006

Settlement on IGN is 20 minutes (it is not a manged fund), wired direct
electronic transfer to Profunds. Profunds receives 4 hours later......

Happy Guy
..
..

Re: hg mimf2006

"happy-guy" <> wrote in message
news:aiGxf.1550$
> Settlement on IGN is 20 minutes (it is not a manged fund), wired direct
> electronic transfer to Profunds. Profunds receives 4 hours later......
>
> Happy Guy

When I sell an ETF at Scottrade, and I have done so many times, it's T+3.
There has never been an exception to this. It's the broker rules on a trade,
it's not whether the fund is managed or not.

Re: hg mimf2006

You've got to be kidding me..... you sell an etf and you're stuck for 3
days?........ I've never had that happen.. Once the trade is done, the money
is available. See below...... 2nd line from bottom...

T+3,,, I don't know anything that is t+3 anymore... most managed funds have
gone to T+1, but I don't trade managed funds anymore..... most just don't
cut it.... actually, most won't let me trade the way I want to, which is why
I use profunds....

Happy Guy
..
..
"Ed" <> wrote in message
news:
>
> When I sell an ETF at Scottrade, and I have done so many times, it's T+3.
> There has never been an exception to this. It's the broker rules on a
> trade,
> it's not whether the fund is managed or not.
>
============================================================ ======================

Advantages

Offers broad scope - wide variety of asset classes available to trade
Cost efficiency - are often lower than traditional mutual funds.
No early redemption penalties
No minimum investment amount needed (just enough to buy a single
share).
Can buy and sell as often as one wishes without fear of being barred
from investment family
Global - ETFs can be bought and sold for almost all countries and/or
international regions throughout the world.
Tax efficiency - More tax efficient then actively managed mutual funds
because they don't have to sell underlying securities to meet redemptions.
Distributions occur less often than with mutual funds.
Consistent style - ETF's don't change styles or wander to different
areas as some mutual funds do
Can be traded intraday - at prices throughout the - No settlement
period like mutual funds

Are not susceptible to the kind of trading abuses uncovered in the
mutual fund industry as of late (since Fall 2003)

Re: hg mimf2006

"happy-guy" <> wrote

> You've got to be kidding me..... you sell an etf and you're stuck for 3
> days?........ I've never had that happen.. Once the trade is done, the
> money
> is available. See below...... 2nd line from bottom...

I see it, and I know if I sold the fund at Scottrade I could use the money
right away but the funds would remain "unsettled" for the three days
following the trade. I sold IXG on Tuesday 1/10, I just checked and the
funds were unsettled Weds & Thurs but are available to me today as settled.
That's only 2 days, go figure. The same thing happens when I sell a stock.



>
> T+3,,, I don't know anything that is t+3 anymore... most managed funds
> have gone to T+1, but I don't trade managed funds anymore..... most just
> don't cut it.... actually, most won't let me trade the way I want to,
> which is why I use profunds....
>
> Happy Guy
> .
> .
> "Ed" <> wrote in message
> news:
>>
>> When I sell an ETF at Scottrade, and I have done so many times, it's T+3.
>> There has never been an exception to this. It's the broker rules on a
>> trade,
>> it's not whether the fund is managed or not.
>>
> ============================================================ ======================
>
> Advantages
>
> Offers broad scope - wide variety of asset classes available to trade
> Cost efficiency - are often lower than traditional mutual funds.
> No early redemption penalties
> No minimum investment amount needed (just enough to buy a single
> share).
> Can buy and sell as often as one wishes without fear of being barred
> from investment family
> Global - ETFs can be bought and sold for almost all countries and/or
> international regions throughout the world.
> Tax efficiency - More tax efficient then actively managed mutual funds
> because they don't have to sell underlying securities to meet redemptions.
> Distributions occur less often than with mutual funds.
> Consistent style - ETF's don't change styles or wander to different
> areas as some mutual funds do
> Can be traded intraday - at prices throughout the - No settlement
> period like mutual funds
>
> Are not susceptible to the kind of trading abuses uncovered in the
> mutual fund industry as of late (since Fall 2003)
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: hg mimf2006

I believe you are confusing two different issues:
1) When you can trade with proceeds from a sale, and
2) When the proceeds from the sale are available

If you are selling one exchange-traded stock or ETF with a T+3
settlement period, and purchasing another with a T+3 period, then you
can sell and buy immediately, as even Scottrade observes:

"What if my first transaction today is selling 100 shares of XYZ, can I
use those proceeds to purchase additional securities today?

"Yes, however, you must hold this [latter] security until settlement
date."



However, that only works because, for the latter security, you don't
have to deliver the cash for three days (T+3). When it is due, the sale
has settled, and the cash covers the latter purchase.

You do not have access to the cash immediately. For example, if you
sell a security with a T+3 settlement (ETF, stock) and purchase an open
end fund, then you must either wait for settlement, or borrow the money
(e.g. via margin account).

I've done the latter, and can attest that I was charged for margin
interest. That's evidence that the cash is not available until
settlement (T+3).

If you have wired out out cash immediately in real life, what happened
to the $20 wire fee (that you didn't declare along with the $7
commission)? Did you check whether you were incurring margin costs?


Your reference is:


The line that you specifically refer to (see below) is comparing an
anomaly of trading open end funds *at a brokerage* (as opposed to
exchanging funds at the fund family distributor itself) with trading
exchange-traded securities. Referring back to Scottrade's FAQ:

"If I sell a Mutual Fund today, can I use those proceeds to make another
Mutual Fund purchase today as long as I do not sell prior to the
settlement date?

"No, Mutual Fund Purchases and Fixed Income Securities can only be
bought with settled funds."

The key point here is that the money you buy the mutual fund with must
be immediately available (settled), while you can buy ETFs with
unsettled funds (not available for another 3 days). That's an anomaly
on the buy side, not the sell side. The proceeds from your ETF sale are
not settled for 3 days, and cannot be used for purchases requiring
settled funds. They certainly cannot be wired out.
--
Mark Freeland



happy-guy wrote:
>
> You've got to be kidding me..... you sell an etf and you're stuck for 3
> days?........ I've never had that happen.. Once the trade is done, the
> money is available. See below...... 2nd line from bottom...
>
> T+3,,, I don't know anything that is t+3 anymore... most managed funds
> have gone to T+1, but I don't trade managed funds anymore..... most
> just don't cut it.... actually, most won't let me trade the way I want
> to, which is why I use profunds....
>
> [...]
> ============================================================ ==========
>
> Advantages
>
> [...]
> Can be traded intraday - at prices throughout the - No settlement
> period like mutual funds

Re: hg mimf2006

Okay, we can end this all... remember when I brought something up last year
and I was told... "Arne, lighten up, it's only a contest; it's just for fun,
stop being so serious"

Well, now, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't care. You guys can continue to
discuss this all you want, but, gee,

"lighten up, it's only a contest; it's just for fun, stop being so
serious"........

Also, those of you that have access to the mimf2006 will see I've added some
1 share positions in offsetting share holdings (bull/bear funds)...... I did
not announce them. They are for my convenience and do not affect the
portfolio value (they diminished my investable funds)..... They give me
prices on my real life holdings so I do not have to go to several other
sites....

As far as my uopix buy, it is a done deal.

Happy Guy
..
..

Re: hg mimf2006

I have to admit, this is getting interesting.




"happy-guy" <> wrote in message
news:iEOxf.2742$
> Okay, we can end this all... remember when I brought something up last
> year and I was told... "Arne, lighten up, it's only a contest; it's just
> for fun, stop being so serious"
>
> Well, now, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't care. You guys can continue to
> discuss this all you want, but, gee,
>
> "lighten up, it's only a contest; it's just for fun, stop being so
> serious"........
>
> Also, those of you that have access to the mimf2006 will see I've added
> some 1 share positions in offsetting share holdings (bull/bear
> funds)...... I did not announce them. They are for my convenience and do
> not affect the portfolio value (they diminished my investable funds).....
> They give me prices on my real life holdings so I do not have to go to
> several other sites....
>
> As far as my uopix buy, it is a done deal.
>
> Happy Guy
> .
> .
>

Re: hg mimf2006

Well, I know I do my part to keep things interesting around here...... say
what you want, but you can't call me boring...

Happy Guy
..
..
"Ed" <> wrote in message
news:
>I have to admit, this is getting interesting.
>
>
>
>
> "happy-guy" <> wrote in message
> news:iEOxf.2742$
>> Okay, we can end this all... remember when I brought something up last
>> year and I was told... "Arne, lighten up, it's only a contest; it's just
>> for fun, stop being so serious"
>>
>> Well, now, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't care. You guys can continue to
>> discuss this all you want, but, gee,
>>
>> "lighten up, it's only a contest; it's just for fun, stop being so
>> serious"........
>>
>> Also, those of you that have access to the mimf2006 will see I've added
>> some 1 share positions in offsetting share holdings (bull/bear
>> funds)...... I did not announce them. They are for my convenience and do
>> not affect the portfolio value (they diminished my investable funds).....
>> They give me prices on my real life holdings so I do not have to go to
>> several other sites....
>>
>> As far as my uopix buy, it is a done deal.
>>
>> Happy Guy
>> .
>> .
>>
>
>

Re: hg mimf2006

happy-guy wrote:
>
> Okay, we can end this all... remember when I brought something up last
> year and I was told... "Arne, lighten up, it's only a contest; it's
> just for fun, stop being so serious"
>
> Well, now, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't care. You guys can continue to
> discuss this all you want, but, gee,
>
> "lighten up, it's only a contest; it's just for fun, stop being so
> serious"........

Arne, you also brought up the idea that the constest should reflect what
people do in real life.

See, e.g. news:69pif.20111$
()

That has value - it demonstrates different ways that people think about
real investments; it also shows different ways to make investments,
including their pros and cons. Choosing the mechanism(s) is a
fundamental part of the contest.

Some people take this aspect lightly in real life - they are then
surprised when they get hit by fees, or prohibited from NTF trading, or
..... That's a part of real life that the contest incorporates.

I've accomodated you - my contest portfolio is, as I posted, a fair
approximation of my investing style, and I've documented the differences
(e.g. the posted portfolio does not hold "emergency cash", which one
would hold in real life). I don't care about "winning" (though I would
hate to come in last :-). I agree with you that simulating (or directly
copying) real world investing has value. But then it seems reasonable
for people to actually do that - including following real world rules.

I don't care if you post the wire fee; I don't care if you post the SEC
fee when you sell securities ($.0000307 per $100 of sales). I do care
that the real world is described accurately, regardless of whether the
bookkeeping is accurate.

In the real world, if I had money at Scottrade and were interested in
trading Profunds, I would not try to wire it out. I'd save the fee and
trade at Scottrade.

"Scottrade will assess a short-term redemption fee upon the sale or
redemption of a no-load position held less than 180 days, except for
Rydex, Profunds and Potomac families of funds. "


At least I would check with Scottrade to see whether frequent Profund
trading would disqualify me from NTF trading (even though they don't
attempt to discourage short term Profund trading by imposing a
redemption fee).

So do lighten up. It's not whether you win or lose, its how you play
the game - fairly, as it would be done in the real world. And if along
the way people gain insight into how the real world operates, so much
the better.

P.S. - I'm not going to have any fun computing bond fund distributions
and reinvestment shares on a monthly basis, and I doubt that anyone is
going to check it down to the penny. But if I don't make a fair
attempt, then I expect to get chastised.
--
Mark Freeland