Warning to Ebay buyers re import charges

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

Re: Warning to Ebay buyers re import charges

On Tue, 06 Jun 2006 22:49:34 +0100, Postman Pat
<> wrote:

>A lot of items come via couriers such as Fedex and these packages
>generally do attract Customs attention. On top of that, the courier
>charges a packet, typically 10-30 quid, as a "Customs clearance" fee.

From the US I've paid -

Duty 3%
VAT 17.5%

FedEx charged a £5 admin fee.

However I had no choice from the supplier but to use FedEx's quickest
and most expensive service which cost £35. This is another common
problem; suppliers are getting commission when they force their
customers to use certain expensive delivery services.

The UK duty rates are available here -
<>

Daytona

Re: Warning to Ebay buyers re import charges

> It's been the case for ages that a lot of *new* items on Ebay (i.e.
> from Ebay shops) are bargains only because they come from outside the
> EU, and one is betting on UK Customs not picking it up and charging
> the import duty and VAT.


AIUI you can legitimately get a bargain in this way in the case of
goods below a certain value.
According to Parcel Force "Goods with a value exceeding =A318 (for
commercial items including internet/mail order purchases), or =A336 in
the case of gifts between private individuals, are generally subject to
Customs charges."
For some items it can also be worth looking at what is on offer
elsewhere in the EU.


J

Re: Warning to Ebay buyers re import charges

"Postman Pat" <> wrote in message
news:
>I think a lot of people know about this, but it's getting worse.
>
> It's been the case for ages that a lot of *new* items on Ebay (i.e.
> from Ebay shops) are bargains only because they come from outside the
> EU, and one is betting on UK Customs not picking it up and charging
> the import duty and VAT.
>
> A lot of items come via couriers such as Fedex and these packages
> generally do attract Customs attention. On top of that, the courier
> charges a packet, typically 10-30 quid, as a "Customs clearance" fee.
>
> However, stuff sent in by airmail generally gets through, I guess some
> 90% of the time. Unfortunately this looks set to end, at least partly,
> as today I got an invoice from Parcelforce (which, unknown to most
> non-UK Ebay shops, often end up delivering stuff sent via e.g. US Post
> Office) which not only showed the expected VAT but also a £13
> clearance charge.
>
> I know from postmen friends that the Post Office is well aware of the
> huge volumes of Ebay related packages and it is no suprise that they
> are hoping to make some money out of this, by imposing handling
> charges which are often well above the entire delivery charge.


I had this happen to me a couple of times with
stuff sent from the states, until one day they delivered
something and asked me to pay the fees, but I had no
money on me at the time so said I couldn't pay.
The delivery driver just left me the parcel anyway
and I've never paid for anything since.

Re: Warning to Ebay buyers re import charges

On Tue, 06 Jun 2006 22:49:34 +0100, Postman Pat
<> wrote:

>I think a lot of people know about this, but it's getting worse.
>
>It's been the case for ages that a lot of *new* items on Ebay (i.e.
>from Ebay shops) are bargains only because they come from outside the
>EU, and one is betting on UK Customs not picking it up and charging
>the import duty and VAT.
>

Yesterday I received a wifi access point ordered via eBay from the US,
value $120 - I was expecting to pay VAT, duty and handling charge but
the sender lied about the contents and value on the declaration slip
so I paid nothing!

Re: Warning to Ebay buyers re import charges

On Tue, 06 Jun 2006 22:49:34 +0100, Postman Pat
<> wrote:

>On top of that, the courier
>charges a packet, typically 10-30 quid, as a "Customs clearance" fee.

You have to pay government duty and taxes lawfully charged but you
have no contract with the courier. I would suggest that, legally, the
person who instructs the courier should pay his fee.

I once bought an item on Ebay from the US for something like $10 but
the silly seller put the value down on the declaration as $50 so I got
clobbered for duty, VAT and a handling fee by Royal Mail. I wrote to
HMCE and sent them the Ebay invoice and they sent me a refund but RM
dug their heels in and refused to even answer my letters.

--
Alasdair.

Re: Warning to Ebay buyers re import charges

On Tue, 06 Jun 2006 22:49:34 +0100, Postman Pat
<> wrote:

> VAT

I notice that fairly recently, companies from the US selling
downloadable goods like software and music include VAT in their bill.
Is this a scam since I cannot see a US based company having a UK VAT
account? If you are VAT registered and quote a UK VAT number when
you make the credit card payment, no VAT is charged so how is the VAT
accounted for?

Alasdair.

Re: Warning to Ebay buyers re import charges

In uk.finance, Alasdair wrote:
>On Tue, 06 Jun 2006 22:49:34 +0100, Postman Pat
><> wrote:
>
>>On top of that, the courier
>>charges a packet, typically 10-30 quid, as a "Customs clearance" fee.
>
>You have to pay government duty and taxes lawfully charged but you
>have no contract with the courier. I would suggest that, legally, the
>person who instructs the courier should pay his fee.

Agreed. I endured many arguments on this topic in the 1980s. If the
courier insists on levying such fees, they should include them in the
amount they charge to their customer (usually the sender). The principal
argument I heard *against* this point of view (after the laughable "it's
an industry standard") is that many large companies have special
arrangements with customs which result in the delivery person not having
to collect the duty and VAT. And it's too much trouble for the couriers
to charge their customers varying amounts depending on whether or not
such arrangements are in place. I remain unconvinced. What happens in
practice is that if the couriers make the recipient pay, it makes their
prices look better, so of course they're going to do it.

I used to insist that my American suppliers did *not* use UPS because of
this problem. On one occasion goods - quite heavy goods - were returned
to the USA at the sender's expense because they took no notice of my
instructions. It only happened once. :-)

--
Mike Barnes

Re: Warning to Ebay buyers re import charges

On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:19:50 +0100, Alasdair <>
wrote:

>
>I notice that fairly recently, companies from the US selling
>downloadable goods like software and music include VAT in their bill.
>Is this a scam since I cannot see a US based company having a UK VAT
>account? If you are VAT registered and quote a UK VAT number when
>you make the credit card payment, no VAT is charged so how is the VAT
>accounted for?
>

Not a scam. If they are importing to the EU thay have to charge VAT at
the rate applicable at the point of delivery, presumably there's a
mechanism for handing it over, in our case, to the UK treasury.

Re: Warning to Ebay buyers re import charges

In uk.legal Peter Johnson <> wrote:

>>I notice that fairly recently, companies from the US selling
>>downloadable goods like software and music include VAT in their bill.
>>Is this a scam since I cannot see a US based company having a UK VAT
>>account? If you are VAT registered and quote a UK VAT number when
>>you make the credit card payment, no VAT is charged so how is the VAT
>>accounted for?

> Not a scam. If they are importing to the EU thay have to charge VAT at
> the rate applicable at the point of delivery, presumably there's a
> mechanism for handing it over, in our case, to the UK treasury.

How do you work this out? VAT only requires to be charged in cases of x
thousands of pounds being charged each year (fill in x with whatever the
current amount is). US firms have no requirement to charge VAT... unless
they have an EU presence... so that might be the case here.

Actually it is a somewhat strange system... VAT for books is zero rated
in the UK so I have been able to order books from all over the world
without any extra payments... however ordering books from Amazon.co.uk
for delivery in the Netherlands and Spain has resulted in VAT being
applied.

Axel

Re: Warning to Ebay buyers re import charges

Alasdair wrote:

<snip>

>
> I once bought an item on Ebay from the US for something like $10 but
> the silly seller put the value down on the declaration as $50 so I got
> clobbered for duty, VAT and a handling fee by Royal Mail. I wrote to
> HMCE and sent them the Ebay invoice and they sent me a refund but RM
> dug their heels in and refused to even answer my letters.
>


Why would Royal Mail give you a refund, they charged you for collecting
the fee off you and passing it on to the HMCE. The fact you later got a
refund of HMCE is nothing to do with them, they did the job they
charged you for.

Its HMCE you should have been harrasing for a refund of your Royal Mail
fee's

Re: Warning to Ebay buyers re import charges

On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 19:35:19 GMT, wrote:

>
>How do you work this out? VAT only requires to be charged in cases of x
>thousands of pounds being charged each year (fill in x with whatever the
>current amount is). US firms have no requirement to charge VAT... unless
>they have an EU presence... so that might be the case here.
>

I don't (work it out). It is new(ish) EU rules dealing with imports.
It works the other way as well. Royal Mail, that I know of, is
registered for VAT with allEU countries so that when it sells postage
stamps to collectors it charges VAT at the appropriate local rate.

Re: Warning to Ebay buyers re import charges

On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 12:33:20 +0100, Peter Johnson
<> wrote:

>On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 19:35:19 GMT, wrote:
>
>>
>>How do you work this out? VAT only requires to be charged in cases of x
>>thousands of pounds being charged each year (fill in x with whatever the
>>current amount is). US firms have no requirement to charge VAT... unless
>>they have an EU presence... so that might be the case here.
>>
>
>I don't (work it out). It is new(ish) EU rules dealing with imports.
>It works the other way as well. Royal Mail, that I know of, is
>registered for VAT with allEU countries so that when it sells postage
>stamps to collectors it charges VAT at the appropriate local rate.

I still don't see how the EU can impose or enforce tax rules on
American companies doing business within the US. Most US companies are
probably totally unaware of such rules, or might just chose to ignore
them anyway. Its hard enough for businesses to keep track of the
various regulations they have to comply with in their own country, and
virtually impossible for them to know about tax rules in every other
country in the world.

Chris

Re: Warning to Ebay buyers re import charges

Chris Blunt wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 12:33:20 +0100, Peter Johnson
> <> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 19:35:19 GMT, wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>How do you work this out? VAT only requires to be charged in cases of x
> >>thousands of pounds being charged each year (fill in x with whatever the
> >>current amount is). US firms have no requirement to charge VAT... unless
> >>they have an EU presence... so that might be the case here.
> >>
> >
> >I don't (work it out). It is new(ish) EU rules dealing with imports.
> >It works the other way as well. Royal Mail, that I know of, is
> >registered for VAT with allEU countries so that when it sells postage
> >stamps to collectors it charges VAT at the appropriate local rate.
>
> I still don't see how the EU can impose or enforce tax rules on
> American companies doing business within the US. Most US companies are
> probably totally unaware of such rules, or might just chose to ignore
> them anyway. Its hard enough for businesses to keep track of the
> various regulations they have to comply with in their own country, and
> virtually impossible for them to know about tax rules in every other
> country in the world.
>
> Chris

There does appear to be the potential for fraud here, and I know of one
UK company that does the reverse and scams UK taxpayers. It's a
"property investment company" that basically deals as a real estate
agent for Bulgarian properties but is based in the UK. VAT law states
that commission on Real Estate transactions there have to be charged at
the Bulgarian rate of VAT (20%) which this company does, but they're
not registered for VAT with either the UK or Bulgarian authorities.

They only refunded the VAT they charged me when I kicked up a stink and
asked repeatedly for a Tax Invoice, when they admitted they couldn't
supply one as they hadn't gotten around to registering.

Re: Warning to Ebay buyers re import charges

"Chris Blunt" wrote
> I still don't see how the EU can impose or enforce tax rules
> on American companies doing business within the US.

They don't.
They "impose or enforce tax rules on American
companies doing business within the *UK* (not US)".

If a company in US wants to sell into the UK, then
they should jolly well research UK law & taxes!!

Re: Warning to Ebay buyers re import charges

Postman Pat <> wrote:

> It's been the case for ages that a lot of *new* items on Ebay (i.e.
> from Ebay shops) are bargains only because they come from outside the
> EU, and one is betting on UK Customs not picking it up and charging
> the import duty and VAT.
snip.
> However, stuff sent in by airmail generally gets through, I guess some
> 90% of the time. Unfortunately this looks set to end, at least partly,
> as today I got an invoice from Parcelforce (which, unknown to most
> non-UK Ebay shops, often end up delivering stuff sent via e.g. US Post
> Office) which not only showed the expected VAT but also a £13
> clearance charge.

None of this is news.
It has been happening for years.I know 10+ years ago I ordered some bits
for my Mac from the US, and got hit with a large tax bill when it
arrived.
Sometimes articles get through without being charged, and it has been
like that for a long time.
Think of it as a bonus when you receive an import with no duties/tax to
pay.
Alan.

--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

Re: Warning to Ebay buyers re import charges

On Fri, 9 Jun 2006 14:40:54 +0100, "Tim" <> wrote:

>"Chris Blunt" wrote
>> I still don't see how the EU can impose or enforce tax rules
>> on American companies doing business within the US.
>
>They don't.
>They "impose or enforce tax rules on American
>companies doing business within the *UK* (not US)".
>
>If a company in US wants to sell into the UK, then
>they should jolly well research UK law & taxes!!

If an American company has its offices in the US, with no physical
presence in the UK, then their place of business cannot be considered
anywhere other than the US. The fact that a UK resident happens to
order goods from them to be sent by mail doesn't alter that in any
way. Why should such a company be subject to laws passed by the EU,
which can't be enforced anyway?

Chris

Re: Warning to Ebay buyers re import charges

> >"Chris Blunt" wrote
> >> I still don't see how the EU can impose or enforce tax rules
> >> on American companies doing business within the US.
> >
> "Tim" wrote:
> >They don't.
> >They "impose or enforce tax rules on American
> >companies doing business within the *UK* (not US)".
> >
> >If a company in US wants to sell into the UK, then
> >they should jolly well research UK law & taxes!!
>
"Chris Blunt" wrote
> If an American company has its offices in the US, with no
> physical presence in the UK, then their place of business
> cannot be considered anywhere other than the US. The
> fact that a UK resident happens to order goods from
> them to be sent by mail doesn't alter that in any way.

Isn't it because the "place of supply" is
deemed to be in the UK, because that's where
the customer was when s/he made the order?

"Chris Blunt" wrote
> Why should such a company be subject to laws
> passed by the EU, which can't be enforced anyway?

Now that's another debate!

Re: Warning to Ebay buyers re import charges

On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 20:07:41 +0800, Chris Blunt
<> wrote:

>On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 12:33:20 +0100, Peter Johnson
><> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 19:35:19 GMT, wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>How do you work this out? VAT only requires to be charged in cases of x
>>>thousands of pounds being charged each year (fill in x with whatever the
>>>current amount is). US firms have no requirement to charge VAT... unless
>>>they have an EU presence... so that might be the case here.
>>>
>>
>>I don't (work it out). It is new(ish) EU rules dealing with imports.
>>It works the other way as well. Royal Mail, that I know of, is
>>registered for VAT with allEU countries so that when it sells postage
>>stamps to collectors it charges VAT at the appropriate local rate.
>
>I still don't see how the EU can impose or enforce tax rules on
>American companies doing business within the US.

I don't think it matters whether you can see it or not.

The fact is that they have and no-one has challenged the legality of
the rules.

I accept that enforcment is difficult but that's another matter.

> Most US companies are
>probably totally unaware of such rules,

Ignorance is no defence. AIH the main players do know the rules are
there.

> or might just chose to ignore
>them anyway. Its hard enough for businesses to keep track of the
>various regulations they have to comply with in their own country, and
>virtually impossible for them to know about tax rules in every other
>country in the world.

That's a cost of choosing to do business in another country. You have
two choices. Don't do business in that country or suffer the overhead
of learning (and following) the rules. personally I don't see that
having a physical presence in a country should change this and neither
does the EU.

tim


>
>Chris

Re: Warning to Ebay buyers re import charges

On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:34:41 +0100, "Tim" <> wrote:
>Isn't it because the "place of supply" is
>deemed to be in the UK, because that's where
>the customer was when s/he made the order?
>

Why then was I charged VAT for ordering a software download
using my credit card from A US company when I was sat at a computer
and physically located on US soil. I just happened to use my UK
credit card for the purchase.

I declined to go through with the order and went to a local store
and purchased the software free of any sales tax.

Something isn't quite right with this.

:) Chris.

Re: Warning to Ebay buyers re import charges

> "Tim" wrote:
> >Isn't it because the "place of supply" is deemed
> > to be in the UK, because that's where the
> >customer was when s/he made the order?
>
"Chris Hill" wrote
> Why then was I charged VAT for ordering a software
> download using my credit card from A US company when
> I was sat at a computer and physically located on US soil.
> I just happened to use my UK credit card for the purchase.

It would appear that they made a "mistake"!
What address is linked to your UK card - one in US or UK?

"Chris Hill" wrote
> Something isn't quite right with this.

Did they give you a chance to show you were located in US?