All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

Hi,

As an interim step to total electronicization of money I believe that
2D barcodes on banknotes should uniquely sign the note, so any imaging
network device could tell if the bit of paper was a duplicate, and help
tracking. A non-networked device should be able to check the
signature, but not do real-time tracking. If your money was stolen you
should be able to receive your stolen property when it was handed into
a bank. (Or is ownership of banknotes lost upon theft? - uk.legal)

2D barcode technology is well developed and used for example in
franking machines. There may be reasons why not to introduce the
technology such as to let dollar bills be the currency of corruption.

Dave.

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

Dave wrote:
> Hi,
>
> As an interim step to total electronicization of money I believe that
> 2D barcodes on banknotes should uniquely sign the note, so any imaging
> network device could tell if the bit of paper was a duplicate, and help
> tracking. A non-networked device should be able to check the
> signature, but not do real-time tracking. If your money was stolen you
> should be able to receive your stolen property when it was handed into
> a bank. (Or is ownership of banknotes lost upon theft? - uk.legal)
>
> 2D barcode technology is well developed and used for example in
> franking machines. There may be reasons why not to introduce the
> technology such as to let dollar bills be the currency of corruption.
>
> Dave.
Sorry, I just thought that RDIF tags could have a similar function- if
they could be given a unique signiature.

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

"Dave" <> wrote in message
news:
> Hi,
>
> As an interim step to total electronicization of money I believe that
> 2D barcodes on banknotes should uniquely sign the note, so any imaging
> network device could tell if the bit of paper was a duplicate, and help
> tracking. A non-networked device should be able to check the
> signature, but not do real-time tracking. If your money was stolen you
> should be able to receive your stolen property when it was handed into
> a bank. (Or is ownership of banknotes lost upon theft? - uk.legal)
>

In principle, there is nothing to stop you writing down the serial nos of
all your bank notes in case they are stolen. Nobody does, though. Whilst
bar codes would make it easier, I am sure that OCR technology can easily
cope with reading existing serial nos.

There are good reasons for not confiscating money from an innocent end user
simply because the serial no is on a list of stolen notes. There are still
nearly 30 million pounds of stolen notes missing from the big robbery in
Essex a few months go, and that's just one robbery. The grand total must be
much higher. Commerce would grind to a halt if everybody had to check each
note against a database of stolen ones.

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

In message <44b8c6b7$0$5221$>, GB
<> wrote

>There are good reasons for not confiscating money from an innocent end user
>simply because the serial no is on a list of stolen notes. There are still
>nearly 30 million pounds of stolen notes missing from the big robbery in
>Essex a few months go, and that's just one robbery. The grand total must be
>much higher. Commerce would grind to a halt if everybody had to check each
>note against a database of stolen ones.
>

How would the general public check notes given in change, or from
cashback transactions, or even from a bank's cash machine?

--
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

GB wrote:
> "Dave" <> wrote in message
> news:
> > Hi,
> >
>
> In principle, there is nothing to stop you writing down the serial nos of
> all your bank notes in case they are stolen. Nobody does, though. Whilst
> bar codes would make it easier, I am sure that OCR technology can easily
> cope with reading existing serial nos.
Making up a serial number is a whole load easier, as far as I know,
than forging a signed, encrypted barcode. The post is also about
forgery.
>
> There are good reasons for not confiscating money from an innocent end user
> simply because the serial no is on a list of stolen notes.
So if I got 5K in cash to buy a car at an auction, got the serial
numbers, and was robbed, if the money turned up at a bank 3 months
later I would have lost ownership? This doesn't seem right, but then
again case law is bad law IHMO. I thought that victims (or relatives
of victims) of the Nazis got their art works back after proving
ownership even if the work was bought in good faith.

> Commerce would grind to a halt if everybody had to check each
> note against a database of stolen ones.
This is done for many card transactions, even with a low transaction
value.

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

"Dave" <> wrote in message
news:
>
> GB wrote:
>> "Dave" <> wrote in message
>> news:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>>
>> In principle, there is nothing to stop you writing down the serial nos of
>> all your bank notes in case they are stolen. Nobody does, though. Whilst
>> bar codes would make it easier, I am sure that OCR technology can easily
>> cope with reading existing serial nos.
> Making up a serial number is a whole load easier, as far as I know,
> than forging a signed, encrypted barcode. The post is also about
> forgery.

Oh, I'm sorry, I see what you mean now. Something like a 400 digit bar code,
with a digital signature. At standard bar code sizes, 400 digits would take
up the whole note, but I guess that could be got around.


>>
>> There are good reasons for not confiscating money from an innocent end
>> user
>> simply because the serial no is on a list of stolen notes.
> So if I got 5K in cash to buy a car at an auction, got the serial
> numbers, and was robbed, if the money turned up at a bank 3 months
> later I would have lost ownership? This doesn't seem right, but then
> again case law is bad law IHMO. I thought that victims (or relatives
> of victims) of the Nazis got their art works back after proving
> ownership even if the work was bought in good faith.

I think that's the principle of the law at the moment. Unless the goods were
bought in 'market overt' they have to be returned to the true owner. So, in
principle, that should apply to bank notes too. I just think that with the
present system it would make life intolerable.

In principle, everyone could carry a little bank note scanner that checks
the serial numbers of every note they receive, but that's also a problem.


>
>> Commerce would grind to a halt if everybody had to check each
>> note against a database of stolen ones.
> This is done for many card transactions, even with a low transaction
> value.
>

There's a difference though. The card transaction has to involve a computer
operation anyway, so the cardholder's account can be debited. Checking
against a list of stolen cards does not increase the transaction time. If
you gave the bus driver a 5 pound note and he had to check that against his
database of stolen notes that would significantly add to the journey time. I
guess that's one reaon why they don't take credit cards at the moment.

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

In message <>, Dave
<> writes
>So if I got 5K in cash to buy a car at an auction, got the serial
>numbers, and was robbed, if the money turned up at a bank 3 months
>later I would have lost ownership?

In many respect bank notes are like bills of exchange in which title
passes by delivery. A subsequent holder of the note would obtain good
title especially if he had given value for it.
>This doesn't seem right,

On the contrary, it makes perfect sense.
>but then
>again case law is bad law IHMO. I thought that victims (or relatives
>of victims) of the Nazis got their art works back after proving
>ownership even if the work was bought in good faith.

I think you are confusing the bit of paper that a note is printed on,
with the underlying monetary value that it represents.

The same mistake is made by people who, for example' say why should I be
charged to withdraw money from an ATM, after all it is 'my' money. It
isnt 'their' money at all, it is 'some' money.
>
>> Commerce would grind to a halt if everybody had to check each
>> note against a database of stolen ones.
>This is done for many card transactions, even with a low transaction
>value.
>
Dont forget that what might be a single check for a card could be many
hundreds of checks in a single transaction if bank notes were used.
--
John Boyle

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

GB wrote:
> "Dave" <> wrote in message
> news:
> >
> > GB wrote:
> >> "Dave" <> wrote in message
> >> news:
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >>
> >> In principle, there is nothing to stop you writing down the serial nos of
> >> all your bank notes in case they are stolen. Nobody does, though. Whilst
> >> bar codes would make it easier, I am sure that OCR technology can easily
> >> cope with reading existing serial nos.
> > Making up a serial number is a whole load easier, as far as I know,
> > than forging a signed, encrypted barcode. The post is also about
> > forgery.
>
> Oh, I'm sorry, I see what you mean now. Something like a 400 digit bar code,
> with a digital signature. At standard bar code sizes, 400 digits would take
> up the whole note, but I guess that could be got around.
>
Apparently PDF417 can store 500 characters per square inch (I'm not an
expert in this area, though)

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

John Boyle wrote:
> In message <>, Dave
> <> writes
> >So if I got 5K in cash to buy a car at an auction, got the serial
> >numbers, and was robbed, if the money turned up at a bank 3 months
> >later I would have lost ownership?
>
> In many respect bank notes are like bills of exchange in which title
> passes by delivery. A subsequent holder of the note would obtain good
> title especially if he had given value for it.
> >This doesn't seem right,
My point was that the title may have been obtained illegally (e.g.
street robbery), so the original holder should retain title. It sounds
like an essay for a law student.

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

In message <>, Dave
<> writes
>
>John Boyle wrote:
>> In message <>, Dave
>> <> writes
>> >So if I got 5K in cash to buy a car at an auction, got the serial
>> >numbers, and was robbed, if the money turned up at a bank 3 months
>> >later I would have lost ownership?
>>
>> In many respect bank notes are like bills of exchange in which title
>> passes by delivery. A subsequent holder of the note would obtain good
>> title especially if he had given value for it.
>> >This doesn't seem right,
>My point was that the title may have been obtained illegally (e.g.
>street robbery), so the original holder should retain title.

No, a subsequent holder of a bill can develop the paramount title as a
'holder in due course' so long as the bill carries no restrictive
crossing and so long as it is taken in good faith by the holder without
any notice of a defect in title of the transferor and for value and
therefore oit is possible for the holder to acquire a better title than
the transferor.

> It sounds
>like an essay for a law student.
>
Quite. the point about bank notes is covered quite explicitly in Miller
v Race in which a bank refused to honour one of its notes that had been
stolen and had subsequently found its way to the plaintiff who acquired
it quite legitimately and in good faith. It was held that the bank was
still liable to the plaintiff on the note.
--
John Boyle

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

Alan wrote:
> In message <44b8c6b7$0$5221$>, GB
> <> wrote
>
>> There are good reasons for not confiscating money from an innocent end
>> user
>> simply because the serial no is on a list of stolen notes. There are
>> still
>> nearly 30 million pounds of stolen notes missing from the big robbery in
>> Essex a few months go, and that's just one robbery. The grand total
>> must be
>> much higher. Commerce would grind to a halt if everybody had to check
>> each
>> note against a database of stolen ones.
>>
>
> How would the general public check notes given in change, or from
> cashback transactions, or even from a bank's cash machine?



;-)

--
___________________________________________ ____ _______________
Regards, | |\ ____
| | | | |\
Michael G. Koerner May they | | | | | | rise again!
Appleton, Wisconsin USA | | | | | |
___________________________________________ | | | | | | _______________

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

The ECB are looking into RFID, I think it should have been in place by now.

However, given the growth in credit and debit card transactions, which have
overtaken cash payments in the UK, is there much point? Banks dislike cash,
there are security risks, reserve issues and the FRB system leaves them
exposed to theoretical runs and credit crunches. The banks love the ability
to generate liquidity for credit card transactions and all the associated
merchant fees.

Does paper money have much of a future? Enplanting notes with RFID chips is
an obvious bridge technology, government would certainly like to track all
possible transactions.

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

"GB" <> wrote in message news:44b8c6b7$0$5221
<
> There are good reasons for not confiscating money from an innocent end
> user simply because the serial no is on a list of stolen notes. There are
> still nearly 30 million pounds of stolen notes missing from the big
> robbery in Essex a few months go, and that's just one robbery. The grand
> total must be much higher. Commerce would grind to a halt if everybody had
> to check each note against a database of stolen ones.

The bad would drive out the good?

Any instance of creating uncertainty or doubt is bad for a currency, modern
currencies are supported by nothing other than trust, they are merely bits
of paper to which the general public attribute 'value'. There is the
conceit, is a stolen note any different to what the BoE prints for itself
above the growth rate of the economy? Money supply in general is in double
digits year on year, we all pay for this hidden inflation eventually,
regardless of its source.

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

"Dave" <> wrote in message
<
> Apparently PDF417 can store 500 characters per square inch (I'm not an
> expert in this area, though)

And when it's tattered and ripped?

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 21:26:23 +0100, Virgils Ghost <> wrote:

> "GB" <> wrote in message news:44b8c6b7$0$5221
> <
>> There are good reasons for not confiscating money from an innocent end
>> user simply because the serial no is on a list of stolen notes. There are
>> still nearly 30 million pounds of stolen notes missing from the big
>> robbery in Essex a few months go, and that's just one robbery. The grand
>> total must be much higher. Commerce would grind to a halt if everybody had
>> to check each note against a database of stolen ones.
>
> The bad would drive out the good?
>
> Any instance of creating uncertainty or doubt is bad for a currency, modern
> currencies are supported by nothing other than trust, they are merely bits
> of paper to which the general public attribute 'value'. There is the
> conceit, is a stolen note any different to what the BoE prints for itself
> above the growth rate of the economy? Money supply in general is in double
> digits year on year, we all pay for this hidden inflation eventually,
> regardless of its source.

Agreed.

--


Mrs. Jones is having her house painted, and her husband comes home from work and leans against the freshly painted wall.
The next day, she says to the painter, "You wanna see where my husband put his hand last night?"
He sighs and says, "Look lady, I got a tough day's work ahead of me. Why don't you just make us a cup of tea?"

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 21:21:59 +0100, Virgils Ghost <> wrote:

> The ECB are looking into RFID, I think it should have been in place by now.
>
> However, given the growth in credit and debit card transactions, which have
> overtaken cash payments in the UK, is there much point? Banks dislike cash,
> there are security risks, reserve issues and the FRB system leaves them
> exposed to theoretical runs and credit crunches. The banks love the ability
> to generate liquidity for credit card transactions and all the associated
> merchant fees.
>
> Does paper money have much of a future? Enplanting notes with RFID chips is
> an obvious bridge technology, government would certainly like to track all
> possible transactions.

The only time I ever use cash is if I've been given some and wish to use it up. Even the post office accepts a debit card.

--


Intercourse prevents divorce.

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

"Virgils Ghost" <> wrote in message
news:Idcug.259553$
> "Dave" <> wrote in message
> <
> > Apparently PDF417 can store 500 characters per square inch (I'm not
an
> > expert in this area, though)
>
> And when it's tattered and ripped?
>
>

PDF 417 only requires a small percentage of the coverage area to be able
to read the entire code. It has excellent redundancy. Depending on the
amount of information stored on the barcode, you can tear a PDF 417 into
3 pieces and stand a good chance of reading the information. If it was
just storing currency serial numbers, there wouldn't be a problem at
all.

PDF417 barcodes can store up to 2710 characters.

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

In article <H7cug.98119$> writes:
> However, given the growth in credit and debit card transactions, which have
> overtaken cash payments in the UK, is there much point? Banks dislike cash,
> there are security risks, reserve issues and the FRB system leaves them
> exposed to theoretical runs and credit crunches.

The reason banks do not like cash is that there is no revenue for them.
With each debit card transaction the bank will receive money. With each
credit card transaction the bank will receive money. In the Netherlands
a common debit card transaction requires a fee of about 30 cents from the
seller. A credit card transaction requires a fee of 3 or 4 % of the amount.

> The banks love the ability
> to generate liquidity for credit card transactions and all the associated
> merchant fees.

Yes, of course, the merchant fee is their income (in addition to the fee the
credit card holder already pays). But how will the merchant react if the
number of credit card and debit card payments increases? Right, he will
increase the price. Why are banks not willing that merchants charge
the cost of the transaction to the client?

In the Netherlands the banks just announced that they wanted statements at
a till like "for amounts under EUR 30 you pay an additional 30 cents" to
be removed. That is not going to happen, not when the markup for the
merchants on some articles can be as low as 25 cents (and the transaction
cost for debit card payment is 30 cents).
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland;

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 02:49:59 +0100, Dik T. Winter <> wrote:

> In article <H7cug.98119$> writes:
> > However, given the growth in credit and debit card transactions, which have
> > overtaken cash payments in the UK, is there much point? Banks dislike cash,
> > there are security risks, reserve issues and the FRB system leaves them
> > exposed to theoretical runs and credit crunches.
>
> The reason banks do not like cash is that there is no revenue for them.
> With each debit card transaction the bank will receive money. With each
> credit card transaction the bank will receive money. In the Netherlands
> a common debit card transaction requires a fee of about 30 cents from the
> seller. A credit card transaction requires a fee of 3 or 4 % of the amount.

AFAIK in the UK debit card transactions are free. Credit cards (Visa and Mastercard) are 2.5%. American Express is higher, something like 4%.

> > The banks love the ability
> > to generate liquidity for credit card transactions and all the associated
> > merchant fees.
>
> Yes, of course, the merchant fee is their income (in addition to the fee the
> credit card holder already pays).

All credit cards in the UK are free. You only pay money in interest if you don't pay the full amount back each month. They started introducing a £10 a year charge a while back, but people voted with their feet.

> But how will the merchant react if the
> number of credit card and debit card payments increases? Right, he will
> increase the price. Why are banks not willing that merchants charge
> the cost of the transaction to the client?
> In the Netherlands the banks just announced that they wanted statements at
> a till like "for amounts under EUR 30 you pay an additional 30 cents" to
> be removed. That is not going to happen, not when the markup for the
> merchants on some articles can be as low as 25 cents (and the transaction
> cost for debit card payment is 30 cents).

Only small shops seem to charge for using cards here. Large shops realise that most people use cards, so they just shove the fee inside the cost of the goods.

--


______ __
( ,' ) `. __ ______/(_________
\\_/ _// , \ ),----/ \------._\
\@ @ /_\ )// \\ //||\\ ,-'` )
_,// ,- \__) )/ \// || \\
(o o) / |_/__) ) // || \\
\)^\) //___/ / // || \\
'---'___/ / ,--// || \\
,'_____/ /,' // _ || \\
/_______) ) //,?`. || ,--. \\
_____ ______(________) `./// \||/ `.\\
`-//`_ _ (________), `.\ _)/ _)/
/(/ _)/ `^(________\`._, `.
| \ ( _______..--`- \_,
/// _ _ -- __.'_
/(/\)-'_``-----``___ `--.._
( ( ( _________`,' ``--.._
`._______( ) `-.
`-.____\_ , ,_ `.
____/ ``--\ `.__,..--````-. \
/_,- _,._\ \ \ `. \
/'-`` ) `. \ /) \ |
____\ |__, \\ / /
/_,- __ '.^ \`.__.' .'
/ /_,` `-) `-...-`
'

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

Dave wrote:
> Sorry, I just thought that RDIF tags could have a similar function- if
> they could be given a unique signiature.

RDIF tags? Have never heard of them. Could you elaborate?

Joe R.

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

Am Sat, 15 Jul 2006 01:43:01 -0700 schrieb Dave:

>> 2D barcode technology is well developed and used for example in
>> franking machines. There may be reasons why not to introduce the
>> technology such as to let dollar bills be the currency of corruption.
>>
>> Dave.
> Sorry, I just thought that RDIF tags could have a similar function- if
> they could be given a unique signiature.

Do you mean RFID tags?

regards
--
Sven Konietzko

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

John Boyle wrote:
> In message <>, Dave
> <> writes
> >
> >John Boyle wrote:
> >> In message <>, Dave
> >> <> writes
> >> >So if I got 5K in cash to buy a car at an auction, got the serial
> >> >numbers, and was robbed, if the money turned up at a bank 3 months
> >> >later I would have lost ownership?
> >>
> >> In many respect bank notes are like bills of exchange in which title
> >> passes by delivery. A subsequent holder of the note would obtain good
> >> title especially if he had given value for it.
> >> >This doesn't seem right,
> >My point was that the title may have been obtained illegally (e.g.
> >street robbery), so the original holder should retain title.
>
> No, a subsequent holder of a bill can develop the paramount title as a
> 'holder in due course' so long as the bill carries no restrictive
> crossing and so long as it is taken in good faith by the holder without
> any notice of a defect in title of the transferor and for value and
> therefore oit is possible for the holder to acquire a better title than
> the transferor.
>
> > It sounds
> >like an essay for a law student.
> >
> Quite. the point about bank notes is covered quite explicitly in Miller
> v Race in which a bank refused to honour one of its notes that had been
> stolen and had subsequently found its way to the plaintiff who acquired
> it quite legitimately and in good faith. It was held that the bank was
> still liable to the plaintiff on the note.
> --
> John Boyle
Thank you for your informative post. This leads onto a couple of
issues, the first of which may be worthy of a top level post in
uk.legal.
What about other countries in Europe do they all apply the same ruling?
i.e. harmonization of case law across the EU. This may be especially
relevant if the UK starts using the Euro.

Miller v Race was in 1758, so presumably the ruling applies to the US
as well. However this was in the days of the gold standard, and could
be outdated. Today money is just a general swindle so a modern jury or
judge may find that both parties have a valid claim and should be paid
equally to the full amount. Is the only way to overturn case law to
pass an act of parliament?

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

In message <>, Dave
<> writes
> This leads onto a couple of
>issues, the first of which may be worthy of a top level post in
>uk.legal.
>What about other countries in Europe do they all apply the same ruling?

I have no idea I'm afraid! Except the basis of this are the Bills of
Exchange Acts which are generally in harmony.


>i.e. harmonization of case law across the EU. This may be especially
>relevant if the UK starts using the Euro.

Yes. I am no sure of the status of a 'euro'.
>
>Miller v Race was in 1758, so presumably the ruling applies to the US
>as well. However this was in the days of the gold standard, and could
>be outdated.

I dont think us now having a fiduciary issue effects the underlying
principles which is that as applied to Negotiable Instruments.
Similarly, I think the concept of 'legal tender' is also irrelevant,
>Today money is just a general swindle so a modern jury or
>judge may find that both parties have a valid claim and should be paid
>equally to the full amount.

Hmm, I think this is bringing back the question 'are we talking about
the theft of a piece of paper or the theft of monetary value?'. If the
first, then I would agree with you, if the latter, then I wouldnt. I
like the latter line the best.


> Is the only way to overturn case law to
>pass an act of parliament?
>
No,there can be further precedents.
--
John Boyle

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

Sven Konietzko wrote:
> Am Sat, 15 Jul 2006 01:43:01 -0700 schrieb Dave:
>
> >> 2D barcode technology is well developed and used for example in
> >> franking machines. There may be reasons why not to introduce the
> >> technology such as to let dollar bills be the currency of corruption.
> >>
> >> Dave.
> > Sorry, I just thought that RDIF tags could have a similar function- if
> > they could be given a unique signiature.
>
> Do you mean RFID tags?
>
Yes.

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 15:24:21 +0100, Joe Random wrote:

> Dave wrote:
>> Sorry, I just thought that RDIF tags could have a similar function- if
>> they could be given a unique signiature.
>
> RDIF tags? Have never heard of them. Could you elaborate?
>
> Joe R.

The proper acronym is probably "RFID", standing for Radio Frequency
IDentification.

These are small rice-sized units which are surrounded by a flat coil
antenna. I don't know if bills could hold them or not, though it's
theoretically possible. Cards can hold them easily; I've got one now for
access into my workplace, for example.

By construction all RFID tags should have a unique code. (Admittedly,
there's no real simple way to verify this.)

The plan is to tag everything in a warehouse or store with such a tag,
which would simplify inventory control. It also leads to some interesting
and rather troubling questions -- such as how does one really know that
the RFID sitting in one's shirt has been truly deactivated? (Assuming the
RFID's in the actual *shirt*, as opposed to the plastic ink-protector unit
designed to spray ink all over the fabric if removed without the special
tool.)

--
#191,
It's still legal to go .sigless.

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

In article <> writes:
> John Boyle wrote:
....
> > Quite. the point about bank notes is covered quite explicitly in Miller
> > v Race in which a bank refused to honour one of its notes that had been
> > stolen and had subsequently found its way to the plaintiff who acquired
> > it quite legitimately and in good faith. It was held that the bank was
> > still liable to the plaintiff on the note.
>
> Thank you for your informative post. This leads onto a couple of
> issues, the first of which may be worthy of a top level post in
> uk.legal.
> What about other countries in Europe do they all apply the same ruling?
> i.e. harmonization of case law across the EU. This may be especially
> relevant if the UK starts using the Euro.

I know that in the Netherlands, when you come in possession of stolen goods
and can show good faith, that you are the legitimate owner of the article,
irrespective of the article, so it can be a banknote. Just about a year
back in Amsterdam there was a similar case. A woman was found in
possession of a bicycle that had been reported as stolen. She was able
to show (convincing enough) that they had not bought the bicycle from a
junk for a low price, but that she had bought it as a second-hand
bicycle in a bicycle-shop. So she was legitimate owner of it, because
buying in a shop is considered to be in good faith.

But, on the other hand, there is nearly no harmonisation of case law
across the EU. In the Netherlands it is based on common law that
basically derives from the Code Napoleon.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland;

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 15:24:21 +0100, Joe Random wrote:
>
>
>>Dave wrote:
>>
>>>Sorry, I just thought that RDIF tags could have a similar function- if
>>>they could be given a unique signiature.
>>
>>RDIF tags? Have never heard of them. Could you elaborate?
>>
>>Joe R.
>
>
> The proper acronym is probably "RFID", standing for Radio Frequency
> IDentification.
>
> These are small rice-sized units which are surrounded by a flat coil
> antenna. I don't know if bills could hold them or not, though it's
> theoretically possible. Cards can hold them easily; I've got one now for
> access into my workplace, for example.
>
> By construction all RFID tags should have a unique code. (Admittedly,
> there's no real simple way to verify this.)
>
> The plan is to tag everything in a warehouse or store with such a tag,
> which would simplify inventory control. It also leads to some interesting
> and rather troubling questions -- such as how does one really know that
> the RFID sitting in one's shirt has been truly deactivated? (Assuming the
> RFID's in the actual *shirt*, as opposed to the plastic ink-protector unit
> designed to spray ink all over the fabric if removed without the special
> tool.)
>

RFID tags cost around 5 cents and are not very flexible mechanically.
What's wrong with the free barcode.

john2

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

"Virgils Ghost" <> wrote in message
news:H7cug.98119$
> The ECB are looking into RFID, I think it should have been in place by
> now.

Here you go folks :-

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 14:35:09 +0100, Virgils Ghost <> wrote:

> "Virgils Ghost" <> wrote in message
> news:H7cug.98119$
>> The ECB are looking into RFID, I think it should have been in place b=
y
>> now.
>
> Here you go folks :-
>

A dollar to protect a 2 dollar note?

-- =

http:=
//www.petersphotos.com

A farmer drives his tractor away from the homestead when half a mile lat=
er his brake cable snaps.
He sees his wife on the porch and manages to catch her attention but is =
unable to make her hear what he is shouting.
However, he thinks she should understand what he wants if he uses sign l=
anguage.
So he raises his hand above his head and starts to operate an imaginary =
pair of pliers, then opens and shuts an imaginary cupboard door and then=
puts the tips of his fingers together to indicate a shed roof.
His wife waves to him and then grasps both her breasts, then grabs her c=
rotch and lastly lifts both her buttocks.
"Stupid woman", he mutters to himself. "Hasn't understood a thing". So =
he repeats his signals, but gets the same response.
Exasperated, he walks back to the homestead ready to berate his wife. "=
Didn't you understand a damn thing?' he asks.
"Yes", she says, "you wanted a pair of pliers from the cupboard in the s=
hed. But what I was telling you was that there is a pair in the toolbox =
under the seat."

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 00:25:10 GMT, "Dik T. Winter" <>
wrote:

>I know that in the Netherlands, when you come in possession of stolen goods
>and can show good faith, that you are the legitimate owner of the article,
>irrespective of the article, so it can be a banknote. Just about a year
>back in Amsterdam there was a similar case. A woman was found in
>possession of a bicycle that had been reported as stolen. She was able
>to show (convincing enough) that they had not bought the bicycle from a
>junk for a low price, but that she had bought it as a second-hand
>bicycle in a bicycle-shop. So she was legitimate owner of it, because
>buying in a shop is considered to be in good faith.

That sounds like a reasonable argument for her not to be prosecuted
for being in possession of stolen goods. What surprises me is that she
was also then considered the legitimate owner. Presumably the original
owner who it was stolen from was denied that status.

Chris

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 20:28:25 GMT, "Virgils Ghost" <> wrote:

>"Dave" <> wrote in message
><
>> Apparently PDF417 can store 500 characters per square inch (I'm not an
>> expert in this area, though)
>
>And when it's tattered and ripped?

PDF417 uses Solomon Reed error correction of flexible size, so a few
damaged bits would be OK. Not that I see much point in the exercise
unless we all have online readers that are able to detect stolen or
duplicate bar codes at the point we receive the money.

--
Cynic

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 18:43:39 +0100, Cynic <> wrote:=


> On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 20:28:25 GMT, "Virgils Ghost" <> wrote:=

>
>> "Dave" <> wrote in message
>> <
>>> Apparently PDF417 can store 500 characters per square inch (I'm not =
an
>>> expert in this area, though)
>>
>> And when it's tattered and ripped?
>
> PDF417 uses Solomon Reed error correction of flexible size, so a few
> damaged bits would be OK. Not that I see much point in the exercise
> unless we all have online readers that are able to detect stolen or
> duplicate bar codes at the point we receive the money.

Perhaps the shops would. I've seen loads (ok ONE) shop with a UV bankno=
te tester.

-- =

http:=
//www.petersphotos.com

An American, a German and a Japanese guy are golfing one day and, at the=
3rd hole, they hear a phone ring. The American excuses himself, puts hi=
s left thumb to his ear, his left baby finger to his mouth and proceeds =
to have a telephone conversation.
When he is done, he looks at the other two and says "Oh, that's the late=
st American technology in cell phones. I have a chip in my thumb and one=
in my baby finger and the antenna is in my hat. Great stuff eh?"
They continue golfing until the 9th hole when, again, they hear a phone =
ring. The German tilts his head to one side and proceeds to have a conve=
rsation with someone in German. When he finishes, he explains to the oth=
er two that he has the latest in German technology cell phones. "A chip =
in my tooth, a chip in my ear and the antenna is inserted in my spine. A=
h the wonders of German knowhow!"
At the 13th hole, a phone rings again and upon hearing it, the Japanese =
fellow disappears into some nearby bushes. The German and the American l=
ook at each other and then walk over and peer into the bushes. In the mi=
ddle of the bushes is the Japanese fellow, squatting with his pants down=
around his ankles.
"What on earth are you doing?!" asks the American.
The Japanese fellow looks up and replies "Waiting for a fax".

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

>
> RFID tags cost around 5 cents and are not very flexible mechanically.
> What's wrong with the free barcode.
>
> john2

I suspect there may be hidden codes in banknotes, but you probably need
specialist scanning equipment and analysis software. But then again
the whole idea of a note is based on confidence, so it may not be
needed.

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

> >Today money is just a general swindle so a modern jury or
> >judge may find that both parties have a valid claim and should be paid
> >equally to the full amount.
The wisdom of Solomon says, "Clone the baby" :)
>
> Hmm, I think this is bringing back the question 'are we talking about
> the theft of a piece of paper or the theft of monetary value?'. If the
> first, then I would agree with you, if the latter, then I wouldnt. I
> like the latter line the best.
>
>
> > Is the only way to overturn case law to
> >pass an act of parliament?
> >
> No,there can be further precedents.
> --
> John Boyle

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

In uk.legal Dave <> wrote:

> GB wrote:
>> "Dave" <> wrote in message
>> news:
>> > Hi,

>> In principle, there is nothing to stop you writing down the serial nos of
>> all your bank notes in case they are stolen. Nobody does, though. Whilst
>> bar codes would make it easier, I am sure that OCR technology can easily
>> cope with reading existing serial nos.
> Making up a serial number is a whole load easier, as far as I know,
> than forging a signed, encrypted barcode. The post is also about
> forgery.

>> There are good reasons for not confiscating money from an innocent end user
>> simply because the serial no is on a list of stolen notes.
> So if I got 5K in cash to buy a car at an auction, got the serial
> numbers, and was robbed, if the money turned up at a bank 3 months
> later I would have lost ownership? This doesn't seem right, but then
> again case law is bad law IHMO. I thought that victims (or relatives
> of victims) of the Nazis got their art works back after proving
> ownership even if the work was bought in good faith.

>> Commerce would grind to a halt if everybody had to check each
>> note against a database of stolen ones.

> This is done for many card transactions, even with a low transaction
> value.

Card transactions tend to be for more then minor purchases... I think
most shopkeepers would be rather annoyed at having to check notes when
someone buys a newspaper... it sounds a load of rubbish.

Axel

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

In uk.legal Dik T. Winter <> wrote:
> In article <> writes:
> > John Boyle wrote:

> > > Quite. the point about bank notes is covered quite explicitly in Miller
> > > v Race in which a bank refused to honour one of its notes that had been
> > > stolen and had subsequently found its way to the plaintiff who acquired
> > > it quite legitimately and in good faith. It was held that the bank was
> > > still liable to the plaintiff on the note.

> > Thank you for your informative post. This leads onto a couple of
> > issues, the first of which may be worthy of a top level post in
> > uk.legal.
> > What about other countries in Europe do they all apply the same ruling?
> > i.e. harmonization of case law across the EU. This may be especially
> > relevant if the UK starts using the Euro.

> I know that in the Netherlands, when you come in possession of stolen goods
> and can show good faith, that you are the legitimate owner of the article,
> irrespective of the article, so it can be a banknote. Just about a year
> back in Amsterdam there was a similar case. A woman was found in
> possession of a bicycle that had been reported as stolen. She was able
> to show (convincing enough) that they had not bought the bicycle from a
> junk for a low price, but that she had bought it as a second-hand
> bicycle in a bicycle-shop. So she was legitimate owner of it, because
> buying in a shop is considered to be in good faith.

> But, on the other hand, there is nearly no harmonisation of case law
> across the EU. In the Netherlands it is based on common law that
> basically derives from the Code Napoleon.

Yes... it impossible... case law is not even harmonised within the UK.

Axel

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

In article <> writes:
> On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 00:25:10 GMT, "Dik T. Winter" <>
> wrote:
>
> >I know that in the Netherlands, when you come in possession of stolen goods
> >and can show good faith, that you are the legitimate owner of the article,
> >irrespective of the article, so it can be a banknote. Just about a year
> >back in Amsterdam there was a similar case. A woman was found in
> >possession of a bicycle that had been reported as stolen. She was able
> >to show (convincing enough) that they had not bought the bicycle from a
> >junk for a low price, but that she had bought it as a second-hand
> >bicycle in a bicycle-shop. So she was legitimate owner of it, because
> >buying in a shop is considered to be in good faith.
>
> That sounds like a reasonable argument for her not to be prosecuted
> for being in possession of stolen goods. What surprises me is that she
> was also then considered the legitimate owner. Presumably the original
> owner who it was stolen from was denied that status.

Yes, the original owner was no longer legitimate owner. On the other
hand, his insurance would have paid him for the stolen bicycle.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland;

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

"Dik T. Winter" <> wrote in message
news:
> In article <> Chris Blunt
<> writes:
> > On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 00:25:10 GMT, "Dik T. Winter" <>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >I know that in the Netherlands, when you come in possession of stolen
goods
> > >and can show good faith, that you are the legitimate owner of the
article,
> > >irrespective of the article, so it can be a banknote. Just about a
year
> > >back in Amsterdam there was a similar case. A woman was found in
> > >possession of a bicycle that had been reported as stolen. She was
able
> > >to show (convincing enough) that they had not bought the bicycle from
a
> > >junk for a low price, but that she had bought it as a second-hand
> > >bicycle in a bicycle-shop. So she was legitimate owner of it, because
> > >buying in a shop is considered to be in good faith.
> >
> > That sounds like a reasonable argument for her not to be prosecuted
> > for being in possession of stolen goods. What surprises me is that she
> > was also then considered the legitimate owner. Presumably the original
> > owner who it was stolen from was denied that status.
>
> Yes, the original owner was no longer legitimate owner. On the other
> hand, his insurance would have paid him for the stolen bicycle.

What if he decided not to have insurance ?

(I did hear a rumour once that bicycle theft rings in Amsterdam were
financed by the new bicycle retailers).
(I also heard a rumour that car radio theft rings in the UK were financed by
car radio shops).

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

"Peter Hucker" <
<
>A dollar to protect a 2 dollar note?

You can already buy RFID tags far cheaper than that, especially when they
wouldn't need 512kb of storage. A few cents to protect a 500 euro note isn't
such a bad deal, the UK already applies holograms.

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

Dave wrote:
> >
> > RFID tags cost around 5 cents and are not very flexible mechanically.
> > What's wrong with the free barcode.
> >
> > john2
>
> I suspect there may be hidden codes in banknotes, but you probably need
> specialist scanning equipment and analysis software. But then again
> the whole idea of a note is based on confidence, so it may not be
> needed.
I just remembered that all bits of paper have a unique pattern of
fibres, and this can be looked for by e.g. a laser scanner. If the
note printer scanned every note they put into circulation then they
would know for certain whether a note was a forgery.

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

Virgils Ghost wrote:
> "Peter Hucker" <
> <
> >A dollar to protect a 2 dollar note?
>
> You can already buy RFID tags far cheaper than that, especially when they
> wouldn't need 512kb of storage. A few cents to protect a 500 euro note isn't
> such a bad deal, the UK already applies holograms.
Part of the original post was that a 2D barcode could be scanned by
anyone with a camera, so I am wondering about RFID v barcode. An
advantage of barcodes is that degradation should be obvious. Also
couldn't you destroy the RFID tag by frying it with e.g. high voltage.
Does a technical failure of the tag invalidate the note?

Also see a previous post about a definitive solution to note validation
(scanning fibres). However you could make up a unique barcode pattern,
and with 500 characters with a 37 character character set you have
1.26e+784 combinations, assumming a trillion notes in circulation, you
have a one in 1.26e+772 chance of guessing a note correctly. However
if quantum computers come along you may need to stop using
public/private keys, if they can try all combinations and find the
valid ones. (redundancy of data not taken into account.)

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

"Dave" <> wrote in message
<
> Also see a previous post about a definitive solution to note validation
> (scanning fibres). However you could make up a unique barcode pattern,
> and with 500 characters with a 37 character character set you have
> 1.26e+784 combinations, assumming a trillion notes in circulation, you
> have a one in 1.26e+772 chance of guessing a note correctly. However
> if quantum computers come along you may need to stop using
> public/private keys, if they can try all combinations and find the
> valid ones. (redundancy of data not taken into account.)

Notes already include such patterns, though obviously not unique,

scanners and digital photocopiers now have software that detects this
'watermark' and refuses to

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

"Virgils Ghost" <> wrote in message
news:Agcvg.27330$
>
> "Dave" <> wrote in message
> <
>> Also see a previous post about a definitive solution to note validation
>> (scanning fibres). However you could make up a unique barcode pattern,
>> and with 500 characters with a 37 character character set you have
>> 1.26e+784 combinations, assumming a trillion notes in circulation, you
>> have a one in 1.26e+772 chance of guessing a note correctly. However
>> if quantum computers come along you may need to stop using
>> public/private keys, if they can try all combinations and find the
>> valid ones. (redundancy of data not taken into account.)
>
> Notes already include such patterns, though obviously not unique,
>
> scanners and digital photocopiers now have software that detects this
> 'watermark' and refuses to

.... scan :-



"The software relies on features built into leading currencies. Latest
banknotes contain a pattern of five tiny circles. On the £20 note, they're
disguised as a musical notation, on the euro they appear in a constellation
of stars; on the new $20 note, the pattern is hidden in the zeros of a
background pattern. Imaging software or devices detect the pattern and
refuse to deal with the image."

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 22:22:01 +0100, Virgils Ghost <> wrote:

>
> "Virgils Ghost" <> wrote in message
> news:Agcvg.27330$
>>
>> "Dave" <> wrote in message
>> <
>>> Also see a previous post about a definitive solution to note validation
>>> (scanning fibres). However you could make up a unique barcode pattern,
>>> and with 500 characters with a 37 character character set you have
>>> 1.26e+784 combinations, assumming a trillion notes in circulation, you
>>> have a one in 1.26e+772 chance of guessing a note correctly. However
>>> if quantum computers come along you may need to stop using
>>> public/private keys, if they can try all combinations and find the
>>> valid ones. (redundancy of data not taken into account.)
>>
>> Notes already include such patterns, though obviously not unique,
>>
>> scanners and digital photocopiers now have software that detects this
>> 'watermark' and refuses to
>
> ... scan :-
>
>
>
> "The software relies on features built into leading currencies. Latest
> banknotes contain a pattern of five tiny circles. On the £20 note, they're
> disguised as a musical notation, on the euro they appear in a constellation
> of stars; on the new $20 note, the pattern is hidden in the zeros of a
> background pattern. Imaging software or devices detect the pattern and
> refuse to deal with the image."

One of the reasons not to use Adobe software.

--


Confuscious say: "If you park, don't drink, accidents cause people."

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 20:32:29 +0100, Dave <> wrote:

>
> Virgils Ghost wrote:
>> "Peter Hucker" <> wrote in message news:op.tct51m1mwabk2w@=
blue...
>> <
>> >A dollar to protect a 2 dollar note?
>>
>> You can already buy RFID tags far cheaper than that, especially when =
they
>> wouldn't need 512kb of storage. A few cents to protect a 500 euro not=
e isn't
>> such a bad deal, the UK already applies holograms.
> Part of the original post was that a 2D barcode could be scanned by
> anyone with a camera, so I am wondering about RFID v barcode. An
> advantage of barcodes is that degradation should be obvious. Also
> couldn't you destroy the RFID tag by frying it with e.g. high voltage.=

> Does a technical failure of the tag invalidate the note?
>
> Also see a previous post about a definitive solution to note validatio=
n
> (scanning fibres). However you could make up a unique barcode pattern=
,
> and with 500 characters with a 37 character character set you have
> 1.26e+784 combinations, assumming a trillion notes in circulation, yo=
u
> have a one in 1.26e+772 chance of guessing a note correctly. However
> if quantum computers come along you may need to stop using
> public/private keys, if they can try all combinations and find the
> valid ones. (redundancy of data not taken into account.)

How about microwaving it?

-- =

http:=
//www.petersphotos.com

o
+--___
+--__<
_ _ _ _|_
]-I-I-I-[
\_,_,_,_/
| |
| _ | -_-_-_- |II>
-_-_-_- | / \ | \-.-.-/ I
\_,,_,/ | |_| | | | / \
| ] | |/\| | /___\
[ []| | ,--. /\| | |
|II> | |__| u| | ||| _| |
I |[] ,--. u | | | _- ,-'
/ \ _[ |_ |u |__| |_- |
/___\ | | | _||||_ \ |__
| |_-_-_| |/ - '' - _\
'-, ___ ,----' \ _/]/ '
__| / \ /``-. \ ,'
`--. | ) ___ _.---'| ( /
_||____|( )`-----`````-. \
\ _..-----------......'( /
_) \------..__--...____/_(__
\ ( ```-----------`
_.-)____________ ,--'
`---------....__`----...___/___
\_ ```----------``/
`- __..-'
) /
_.-\______ \ __,-.
`------.._```-----.. /__,./ )
`-.-, '`````--, \ _,-. (
__)____....---'_,` ( _) _/
\-------``````` / \ (
) (-._``\ \ ) /
__\___....'_/ ) _/ \ (
__)------````/ [ ) / \
/ /``` )\ [ /

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

Virgils Ghost wrote:
> "Dave" <> wrote in message
> <
> > Also see a previous post about a definitive solution to note validation
> > (scanning fibres).
>
> Notes already include such patterns, though obviously not unique,
>
> scanners and digital photocopiers now have software that detects this
> 'watermark' and refuses to
>
>
>

This is what I was on about:

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

In article <44bcf78e$0$17989$> writes:
> "Dik T. Winter" <> wrote in message
> news:
....
> > Yes, the original owner was no longer legitimate owner. On the other
> > hand, his insurance would have paid him for the stolen bicycle.
>
> What if he decided not to have insurance ?

Tough luck. He might try to get recompense from the thief, or from the
shop that sold his bicycle.

> (I did hear a rumour once that bicycle theft rings in Amsterdam were
> financed by the new bicycle retailers).

Most are stolen by junks that sell them again.

> (I also heard a rumour that car radio theft rings in the UK were financed by
> car radio shops).

Also those are mostly stolen by junks in the Netherlands. But theft of
those are in the decline as modern radio's are integrated in the
dashboard.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland;

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

"Peter Hucker" <
On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 18:43:39 +0100, Cynic <> wrote:

> On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 20:28:25 GMT, "Virgils Ghost" <> wrote:
>
>> "Dave" <> wrote in message
>> <
>>> Apparently PDF417 can store 500 characters per square inch (I'm not an
>>> expert in this area, though)
>>
>> And when it's tattered and ripped?
>
> PDF417 uses Solomon Reed error correction of flexible size, so a few
> damaged bits would be OK. Not that I see much point in the exercise
> unless we all have online readers that are able to detect stolen or
> duplicate bar codes at the point we receive the money.

>Perhaps the shops would. I've seen loads (ok ONE) shop with a UV banknote
>tester.

As have I. A chippy actually.

It incorrectly read a real £20 note as counterfeit because it had been
washed.

What do modern detergents contain?

U/V sensitive ingredients.

What do fake note testers check for? The same thing.

All in all useless.

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

"Dik T. Winter" <> wrote in message
news:
> In article <44bcf78e$0$17989$>
"Miss L. Toe" <> writes:
> > "Dik T. Winter" <> wrote in message
> > news:
> ...
> > > Yes, the original owner was no longer legitimate owner. On the other
> > > hand, his insurance would have paid him for the stolen bicycle.
> >
> > What if he decided not to have insurance ?
>
> Tough luck. He might try to get recompense from the thief, or from the
> shop that sold his bicycle.
>

Why should the shop be any more liable than the customer ?

> > (I did hear a rumour once that bicycle theft rings in Amsterdam were
> > financed by the new bicycle retailers).
>
> Most are stolen by junks that sell them again.
>

But who do they sell them to ?

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

In article <44bf5ed4$0$17971$> writes:
>
> "Dik T. Winter" <> wrote in message
> news:
> > In article <44bcf78e$0$17989$>
> "Miss L. Toe" <> writes:
> > > "Dik T. Winter" <> wrote in message
> > > news:
> > ...
> > > > Yes, the original owner was no longer legitimate owner. On the other
> > > > hand, his insurance would have paid him for the stolen bicycle.
> > >
> > > What if he decided not to have insurance ?
> >
> > Tough luck. He might try to get recompense from the thief, or from the
> > shop that sold his bicycle.
>
> Why should the shop be any more liable than the customer ?

Well, if the shop owner can show he bought the bicycle in good faith he
is not liable, but the person he bought it from. But I think that will
be tough to show. (He might have checked, for instance, the list of
stolen bicycles.)

> > > (I did hear a rumour once that bicycle theft rings in Amsterdam were
> > > financed by the new bicycle retailers).
> >
> > Most are stolen by junks that sell them again.
>
> But who do they sell them to ?

The man on the street.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland;

Re: All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 02:43:43 +0100, boo_star <> wrote:

> "Peter Hucker" <
> On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 18:43:39 +0100, Cynic <> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 20:28:25 GMT, "Virgils Ghost" <> wrote:
>>
>>> "Dave" <> wrote in message
>>> <
>>>> Apparently PDF417 can store 500 characters per square inch (I'm not an
>>>> expert in this area, though)
>>>
>>> And when it's tattered and ripped?
>>
>> PDF417 uses Solomon Reed error correction of flexible size, so a few
>> damaged bits would be OK. Not that I see much point in the exercise
>> unless we all have online readers that are able to detect stolen or
>> duplicate bar codes at the point we receive the money.
>
>> Perhaps the shops would. I've seen loads (ok ONE) shop with a UV banknote
>> tester.
>
> As have I. A chippy actually.
>
> It incorrectly read a real £20 note as counterfeit because it had been
> washed.
>
> What do modern detergents contain?
>
> U/V sensitive ingredients.
>
> What do fake note testers check for? The same thing.
>
> All in all useless.

Did you get into trouble?

--


Officer Patrick McGuire of the New York City Police Department answers a call on his radio and reports to the scene of a car accident in the Queens-Midtown Tunnel.
Officer McGuire notes that a new Buick had its front end merged with the rear end of a Chrysler.
The driver of the Buick was Father Francis O'Boyle; the driver of the Chrysler was Rabbi Isaac Goldstein.
After Officer McGuire verifies that Rabbi Goldstein has suffered no physical injuries in the accident, he walks back to survey the damages to each vehicle.
Then, Officer McGuire walks over to Father O'Boyle and asks him: "Tell me, Father, just how fast was that Rabbi going when he backed into you?"